New DNA Test Could Identify the Snake that Bit You.

**Rick** · 11-04-2014, 12:33 PM

http://www.webmd.com/news/20141104/w...est-might-tell

**wilderness medic** · 11-04-2014, 12:39 PM

Very cool. Don't think it will make a huge impact here, but for other countries that will probably save a good deal of live/limbs.

**hunter63** · 11-04-2014, 01:31 PM

Well, ain't that something....DNA tests as fast as "CSI"?......who would have thought.

"Were are gonna take a test, and send it out for DNA testing....should get results back in a month or so....Hang tight"

So is this really a viable option?

**BENESSE** · 11-04-2014, 01:32 PM

Now if we could only have that for a rat who ratted you out...

**Tokwan** · 11-04-2014, 08:40 PM

Same thinking as Hunter here, unless it could be done within the next 10 minutes.

**hunter63** · 11-04-2014, 08:54 PM

Friend retired as a detective fron local PD....DNA takes 3 to 6 months....maybe a special case?

**wilderness medic** · 11-04-2014, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by hunter63

Friend retired as a detective fron local PD....DNA takes 3 to 6 months....maybe a special case?

Well, with people you're not only trying to positively ID a species, but a variety....

With a snake, all you need is a species. To put it into perspective, in a crime scene all you would need is a test to confirm the DNA is human.

**hunter63** · 11-04-2014, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by wilderness medic

Well, with people you're not only trying to positively ID a species, but a variety....

With a snake, all you need is a species. To put it into perspective, in a crime scene all you would need is a test to confirm the DNA is human.

.....so how long does that take?

**Tokwan** · 11-04-2014, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by wilderness medic

Well, with people you're not only trying to positively ID a species, but a variety....

With a snake, all you need is a species. To put it into perspective, in a crime scene all you would need is a test to confirm the DNA is human.

Beg to differ, at a crime scene, confirmation of DNA is not only for human but to determine what was at the crime scene, it could be a horse, a wolf or a human being. As for snakes, yep..it is to determine the main specie so that the correct anti venom can be administered. The question is, how long would it take?

**wilderness medic** · 11-04-2014, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tokwan

Beg to differ, at a crime scene, confirmation of DNA is not only for human but to determine what was at the crime scene, it could be a horse, a wolf or a human being. As for snakes, yep..it is to determine the main specie so that the correct anti venom can be administered. The question is, how long would it take?

Ok, that's just strengthening my point as to why crime scene DNA takes so long.....

The snake i'd imagine would be much faster. How much faster, I don't know. But they aren't trying to find one specific snake and rule out a horse, a grasshopper, a bald eagle, and a bass. Or catalogue every single acid, carbohydrate, or protein in the DNA chain in a specific sequence. I'm just guessing but i'd think it would be a much more generalized pattern than an exact match for an individual.

They can test blood in an emergency rather quickly. Sample, send to labs, come back with a sheet full of info. DNA may be harder to categorize, but I don't see why it would take weeks.

Even getting it down to the genus would give a good indication to what anti will be used. Crotalus, enormous chance it will be CroFab antivenin. Elapidae, good chance Polyvalent...

**Tokwan** · 11-04-2014, 11:21 PM

Actually the University of Science Malaysia did try that. However, given the number of too many species of snakes in Malaysia... they decided not to implement the idea yet. They are still working on it but have not officially announced the success yet. I was informed by my pal there, that they realized that the DNA looked similar but the anti venom needs to be different. One example is the similarity of DNA of the Russel Viper and the Pit Viper, which the venom reacts differently.
The USM (University of Science) worked with the University Hospital in our Federal Capital...I guess you know the many types of snakes we have in Malaysia....the latest bad news..some of the snakes that were known not to bve poisonous..are now known to be poisonous...most probably to a certain mutant process or nature's evolution process.....

The possibility of a doctor administering the wrong anti venom is still there.

**wilderness medic** · 11-04-2014, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tokwan

Actually the University of Science Malaysia did try that. However, given the number of too many species of snakes in Malaysia... they decided not to implement the idea yet. They are still working on it but have not officially announced the success yet. I was informed by my pal there, that they realized that the DNA looked similar but the anti venom needs to be different. One example is the similarity of DNA of the Russel Viper and the Pit Viper, which the venom reacts differently.
The USM (University of Science) worked with the University Hospital in our Federal Capital...I guess you know the many types of snakes we have in Malaysia....the latest bad news..some of the snakes that were known not to bve poisonous..are now known to be poisonous...most probably to a certain mutant process or nature's evolution process.....

The possibility of a doctor administering the wrong anti venom is still there.

Russels viper, Daboia russellii, is a specific species of viper. "Pit viper" is a generic term for any viper with loreal pits. But I see what you're saying, if it's not up to par yet that's too bad, hopefully they get it down good enough to use and save some limbs and lives.

Yeah i'm sure having a ton of different species of snakes in your homeland doesn't help make it easier. Here it's pretty easy. CroFab, or No-Fab (Hahaha...) I have read about species previously thought to be non venomous being found to be recently. Hell they even say monitor lizards and iguanas and venomous. They have modified saliva that contains proteins to break down tissue. I don't think it's anything new. Evolution takes a while. I think we are just now studying it better, with more advanced tools to find it.

Yes there's still the possibility of a Dr administering the wrong anti. There's also the possibility of a Dr administering any wrong drug. I don't think they would push an anti unless they were pretty sure it was the right one.

Also most people have to be tested for allergies to anti before being given them anyway. It's not like you get thrown in an ER and they run at you with a syringe full of anti. At least here, the allergic reaction to the serum from the horse in the anti can be worse than the actual venom.

**Tokwan** · 11-05-2014, 02:31 AM

FYI, the Russel Viper may be a family of the Pit Viper..but their venoms are entirely different and attacks in different ways..

**wilderness medic** · 11-05-2014, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Tokwan

FYI, the Russel Viper may be a family of the Pit Viper..but their venoms are entirely different and attacks in different ways..

Sorry, Daboi russelii is not a pit viper. It is a true viper, as it lacks loreal pits. You are comparing a specific specie of viper to a very broad sub family of venomous vipers, Crotalinae...

That's like saying a black widow spider may be an insect, but it's venom acts entirely different than insects. I got your point, snakes have different venom, and require different antis though.

I'm familiar with the toxicology of various snake venoms, hemo, neuro, myo, cyto.

**Rick** · 11-05-2014, 09:57 AM

"Chappuis says his team's ultimate aim is to produce simple bedside tests that change colour in around 30 minutes to indicate if a local venomous species appears to be responsible for a bite."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VFotdPnF98F

I don't know but my guess is they are looking at specific enzymes in the snake venom.

Even more info on non-venom anti-venom.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VFotKPnF98E

**wilderness medic** · 11-05-2014, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

"Chappuis says his team's ultimate aim is to produce simple bedside tests that change colour in around 30 minutes to indicate if a local venomous species appears to be responsible for a bite."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VFotdPnF98F

I don't know but my guess is they are looking at specific enzymes in the snake venom.

Even more info on non-venom anti-venom.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VFotKPnF98E

That is awesome, I hope they get it down. A simple color change test. I wonder if it would be individual tests or a panel of various snakes and the positive one changes.

**hunter63** · 11-05-2014, 12:59 PM

"Well, I have some good news and some bad news........"
"What Doc....am I gonna live.....?"

"Yes snake bite was something we can treat.....But you are pregnant."

**RangerXanatos** · 11-05-2014, 02:34 PM

Granted it wasn't animal, but I have taken viral dna (was rna but running it through pcr to amplify it changes it to dna) and gotten sequencing the very next day.

A person can also run a pcr on dna and then run it in a gel to separate bands of alleles all easily in one day.
The bands of alleles from 6 different people looks like this:
D1S80Demo.gif
From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling)

It's more about having the resources to speed up the testing.