The Wussification of America

**welderguy** · 06-10-2013, 07:10 PM

Something I find amazing is how people can believe every statistic they see about how bad guns are no matter how bad the report statistics are compared to the actual data. awhile back i posted a bunch of links with data on shootings and gun crime, and none of them match anything close to what these numbers are.

**Seniorman** · 06-10-2013, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Winter

"Without toy guns, my childhood would have been empty. I killed so many Nazi's and Jap's in back yards from Upper Darby, to the hills of NC, it would make your head spin. Of course, I knew they weren't real as I knew my toy gun wasn't."

GREATUSERNAME - "I wholeheartedly disagree with your post Sir.
And with toy guns, my childhood would been empty. I would have spent all my time in wargames and other pursuits rather than reading or experimenting with tinkering in my garage. I'm not saying toy guns are dangerous for all kids to have, but having coached young shooters for years now, the lack of respect the new ones have for firearms can be astounding, and the biggest offenders in my experience are the ones who played with toy guns and violent videogames at too young an age. For the amount of benefit playing with toy guns gives, I don't think it's worth the risk of kids not respecting real firearms. ..."

As with Winter, I and my friends did not play "Cowboys & Indians: we constantly played WAR with our toy cap pistols ... when we could get caps as they were damned scarce during WW II! Of course, no one wanted to be a Jap or Kraut so we'd flip coins to decide who were the bad guys and who were the Americans. Afterall, an American "soldier" could be wounded but never killed. The Japs and Krauts were always killed. No Prisoners!!

Our parents taught us the great difference between "real" and "make believe." In the small rural town in which I grew up, not one kid who later went on to own and shoot real guns -- and almost all of us had them early on -- had an accident, other than one kid who, while hunting, shot off his brother's leg when he tried to cross a barbed wire fence holding his old loaded single barrel shotgun, got caught by the top wire, and in falling, inadvertently pulled the trigger as the barrel crossed his brother's leg. That accident had absolutely nothing to do with the brothers playing earlier with toy guns.

GREATUSERNAME - " ... And with toy guns, my childhood would been empty. I would have spent all my time in wargames and other pursuits rather than reading or experimenting with tinkering in my garage."

Now that seems just a bit condescending to me, inferring that those kids who played with toy guns didn't read anything much or "tinker" in their garages, etc. Hmmmm.

I not only played with toy guns but read a bit here and there, also. Had a great curiosity for the written word. At an early age, I began reading not only Max Brand, Raymond Chandler, and Mickey Spillane, but William Shakespere, Moliere, Mark Twain, Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel, collected works of Theodore Roosevelt, and Hemingway, among others. Kinda eclectic, but I loved to read different stuff. Managed to put some of that to use later as a successful screenwriter in Hollywood.

As for tinkering around, one of my buddies who played with toy guns tinkered around enough that one of his inventions was bought by General Motors, who also paid his way through MIT. He later worked at GM as one of their top engineers.

My brother became a very successful stocks and bonds broker. Another friend and playmate became a well known psychiatrist. Another friend attended West Point M.A. and later retired as a Brigadier General. Two other friends had long careers as USAF jet fighter pilots and another flew USAF bombers and then flew as Captain for American Airlines for years.

All of us played with toy guns. We also hunted, swam and fished and camped and rode bicycles, and explored the forests, swung from rope swings across creeks where hornets had their nests in the banks, played sports, etc. Great childhood, I must say.

Therefore, I find no validity in your statement. Playing with toy guns does not prevent kids from seeking education and careers, nor does it necessarily cause disrespect for firearms. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

S.M.

**Rick** · 06-10-2013, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Seniorman

Our parents taught us the great difference between "real" and "make believe."

Yep. Staying out after curfew and the belt would be on the bar. That was real. Thinking you could get away with it just once...that was make believe.

**randyt** · 06-10-2013, 08:19 PM

I tinkered around a lot as a kid, mostly making muzzleloaders but not limited to that. God forbid but I was making campfires at a real young age too, for some reason I was spared from being a arsonist. What in the **** has this world come too.

**crashdive123** · 06-10-2013, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by GreatUsername

Granted, it was an anti-gun organization that was purveying it, but the study was conducted by these guys: http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/

And they gave a seminar about the results at UW. You might claim they were baldface lying, but I don't think so. The other statistics they put out, while given without context, are all technically correct.

Yeah - you may want to cross check their "facts".

**George Harkenrider** · 06-10-2013, 08:37 PM

I personally can speak to the absolute wussification of America in the young generation, as that is quite unfortunately my generation, and its pretty horrific. I had a BOY SCOUT INSTRUCTOR flip on me because I was "too comfortable" around firearms, and got dragged away by school security because I had videos on youtube of me with guns. The schools and just general people in charge keep trying to do things with their zero tolerance policies, and what it has in fact created is fear amongst my age group of anything dangerous. Some people won't go in my house just based on the fact that they know I keep guns around. oh yeah and I have/had toy guns and haven't shot anyone yet, and have very good muzzle control and such

**Batch** · 06-10-2013, 10:29 PM

I grew up playing cowboys and injuns and you truly old dudes played nazis. LOL

My 3 year old grand-daughter shoots archery with my brother Sean and I now. Even though her bow has a way lighter draw than ours, she has to follow all of the same safety rules we follow. She also used her knife to cut her cajun peppers off of the plant she planted herself. I held the pepper while she cut the stem.

She is aware of firearms and their dangers. She sees me take firearms out all the time and she talks to me about them. I would never trust the judgement of a 3 year old around firearms. But, I would rather try and teach her firearm safety than rely on other people securing their arms.

All my kids have done fine with guns and I grew up in a house loaded with guns and no locks on any of them.

**Seniorman** · 06-10-2013, 10:38 PM

As for "statistics," I believe it was Mark Twain who once said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Couldn't be better said today.

S.M.

**Winter** · 06-10-2013, 10:54 PM

Having a firearm within 2000 yards of your home increases the likelihood you will be shot %100.

It's true, if nobody has a gun within 2000 yards, you won't get shot.

**intothenew** · 06-10-2013, 11:02 PM

BB Gun, that was my first kill. A frog, and many thereafter, was the victim. Coffee cans full of legs, those were the days.

We were handed, and soon realized the effectiveness of a bow. Stick 'em on the bank , no need to wade in after the corpse. 410's, 22's, all fell short, and we were privy to such.

We also learned just what pound hammer for the job. Tools makes us human.

**BENESSE** · 06-10-2013, 11:03 PM

If a lack of a firearm/toy gun makes you a wuss then you've got bigger issues to contend with.
Good luck with that, too.

**welderguy** · 06-10-2013, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Winter

Having a firearm within 2000 yards of your home increases the likelihood you will be shot %100.

It's true, if nobody has a gun within 2000 yards, you won't get shot.

I hope your being sarcastic!!! If not just how did you come up with that?

And walking in the middle of a road increases your chances of being hit by a car 100%
And wading out 2000 yards into a lake not knowing how to swim increases your risk of drowning by 100%
Standing in a fire increases your chances of burning to death by 100%

**welderguy** · 06-10-2013, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by BENESSE

If a lack of a firearm/toy gun makes you a wuss then you've got bigger issues to contend with.
Good luck with that, too.

Not at all. it makes the parents the wuss for bowing down and saying OH no people say guns are bad and youll shoot someone some day if you play with them timmy . now go play with your sisters dolls

**GreatUsername** · 06-11-2013, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by intothenew

BB Gun, that was my first kill. A frog, and many thereafter, was the victim. Coffee cans full of legs, those were the days.

We were handed, and soon realized the effectiveness of a bow. Stick 'em on the bank , no need to wade in after the corpse. 410's, 22's, all fell short, and we were privy to such.

We also learned just what pound hammer for the job. Tools makes us human.

But see, that's the part I think some of you guys who are reacting to me are missing: I am totally pro-gun, especially for youth. I just know from my experience as a coach, having taught other people's kids how to shoot, that today's culture of an increasing level of acceptable "fantasy violence" is not making the job of teaching youth to respect firearms any easier. I love it when the little ones as young as 7 start shooting. But I hate it when he leaves his action closed and sweeps people with his barrel because he's not respecting the firearm's potential. It may not be the toys' fault in all cases, but most of these of the little offenders at my club are VERY into video-games featuring gun-violence and almost all of them have toy guns of one sort or another. Perhaps during the time when most of you grew up, and there wasn't as much of a market for gore-glorifying virtual violence, nor was it as acceptable, the toy guns and the play-fighting weren't as formative to developing kids. Now it is. That's just been my experience.

On the other hand, doing what intothenew did, using BB guns, 22s, 410s, bows, all that stuff, it's great for kids, but I think they need a consistent message of "never ever point a gun-shaped object at a person" until such time as they are old enough to have proper judgement, but more importantly so they have an innately ingrained response to holding a gun-shaped object: finger off the trigger, point in safe direction, treat as if loaded. There are many games on the university campus that involve nerf guns. I can tell which students were raised with guns from a young age just by looking, because they handle their nerf guns the way you'd expect them to handle real ones in combat, with all trigger and muzzle awareness. There is no need to, because these are just toys, but they do it anyways. I'd much rather have that than the opposite.

**welderguy** · 06-11-2013, 12:47 AM

Greatusername, One Huge problem is parental involvement, Your teaching the kiddos is probable the only firearms lessons some of them get! there is no one there in a lot of cases to say hey it may be a toy but remember what you learned about gun safety!!!!