Good news!

[2dumb2kwit]

The Boyscouts new uniforms are going to look absolutely fabulous!

[Ken]

.......what a tremendous let-down that was.

[GreatUsername]

Have you not seen our uniform shorts recently? Shorter than they've been in decades.

In all honesty though, knowing the community, nothing much has changed, they basically just made it so it is institutionally required to stop bullying the kids that were already hiding in the ranks (of which there are many)

I'm good with that, less bullying = happier troops. Happier troops = fewer arguments. Fewer arguments = fewer fights. Fewer fights = permission to have fixed blade knives at scouting events again?

[1stimestar]

Yep, it was a good move.

[Sarge47]

I'm just trying to figure out why 2D is so excited!....

[Rick]

Personally, I'm all jiggy with it.

[2dumb2kwit]

The scouts decided to do that, and I think it's their business...not mine. I do see it as a problem, but before you scream at me, understand that I don't care whether or not someone is gay. That's not my business. The problem that I see is more....well, lets just call it logistics. Let's say that you take a group of kids camping. I think most will agree with me, that you wouldn't put 14 or 15 year old boys in tents with their female classmates. So how would scout leaders handle sleeping arrangements with a gay scout? How about restroom(if you will) arrangements? How do you make the gay scout, the straight scout, and all the parents comfortable?

[bacpacker]

I can't figure out what part of "Morally Straight" wasn't given any thought?

If someone wants to be gay, that's their choice. No different than someone cheating on their spouse. It the individuals call to make. But why they hell does whatever decision is made have to be forced on everyone else? The Boy Scouts, which I was a member of years ago, is not about sex in any regard. Why should this even be brought into the equation?

[Rick]

So how would scout leaders handle sleeping arrangements with a gay scout?

Just like they always have. There have always been gays and lesbians in scouts just like they have always been in the military and life in general. Personally, I have enough trouble keeping my own nose clean without fretting about the next person's sexual orientation. But that's just me. Perhaps others have their own house in order and can freely judge others. (shug). I've always seen the role of leader as akin to teacher, mentor and adviser. A young man or woman needs guidance, trust and someone who will listen. Being young is tough enough without some old geezer like me making moral judgments about them and their personal worth.

[1stimestar]

I can't figure out what part of "Morally Straight" wasn't given any thought?

If someone wants to be gay, that's their choice. No different than someone cheating on their spouse. It the individuals call to make. But why they hell does whatever decision is made have to be forced on everyone else? The Boy Scouts, which I was a member of years ago, is not about sex in any regard. Why should this even be brought into the equation?

Which decision exactly is it that they are forcing on everyone else? The decision to not discriminate? Would you be ok with them discriminating against someone due to race? The only people this will affect is gay, male youth. You know, those people who will be members of your community, government, and health care. Those people who most of us WANT to become caring, confident, intelligent, well rounded adults.

[bacpacker]

Which decision exactly is it that they are forcing on everyone else? The decision to not discriminate? Would you be ok with them discriminating against someone due to race? The only people this will affect is gay, male youth. You know, those people who will be members of your community, government, and health care. Those people who most of us WANT to become caring, confident, intelligent, well rounded adults.

I think you may have missed my point. The Boy Scouts have never been about sex. That's not a part of what they do. Why should this be brought into play. It has nothing to do with discrimination, it's all about forcing some issue to the top of the news and tearing apart one of the leading organizations that has been in play in this country for many years.

[1stimestar]

Right, it SHOULDN'T be about sex. But until forced to do so, THEY made it about sexual orientation by excluding any young man that was gay. THEY are the ones that made it about sex.

[2dumb2kwit]

Just like they always have. There have always been gays and lesbians in scouts just like they have always been in the military and life in general. Personally, I have enough trouble keeping my own nose clean without fretting about the next person's sexual orientation. But that's just me. Perhaps others have their own house in order and can freely judge others. (shug). I've always seen the role of leader as akin to teacher, mentor and adviser. A young man or woman needs guidance, trust and someone who will listen. Being young is tough enough without some old geezer like me making moral judgments about them and their personal worth.

That's pretty insulting. Who said anything about judging folks, or making judgements about their worth?

You know what....this place is just getting too many people who think they are morally superior, for my taste.

Maybe if y'all would pay a little more attention to what people are actually saying, rather than having a knee jerk reaction to what you think they mean and how beneath you you think they are......ahhhh, never mind.

[Ken]

"It’s getting to a point where, even when you know there’s no hatred in your heart, you find yourself picking words the way a shopper picks tomatoes, looking for just the right ones, casting questionable ones aside." Joe Fitzgerald, Boston Herald, 5/25/13


http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion...il_by_its_name

[JPGreco]

Well first thing I will say is that the idea of two boys rolling around in a tent with each other as being the reason to say no to gay scouts because they are supposed to be "morally straight" is slightly flawed. Many many many many scouts do things at scouting events that aren't with the scout oath and law, so it is somewhat of a moot point.

What I dislike is how this country forgets that private groups are supposed to have the right to make their own choice. BSA isn't a public entity (or shouldn't be*) and as such should have the right to say yes or no. There are many groups all over the US that discriminate. I couldn't apply for a United Negro College Fund scholarship cause I'm not black. Why can't BSA say no gays? If any side made it about anything, it was those who insisted that BSA change. Why not, instead of telling the BSA to change, start your own group or join one of the many out there that are similar.

*I won't get into the whole definition of what makes a group public vs private either because as stated, numerous entities exist that discriminate that if we were to say that BSA MUST change, then so to would these groups, so there is no point to that discussion here and it would be very political.

As an Eagle Scout, am I against gay scouts? Not particularly. I was in scouts with a kid who was gay. Didn't really care. We picked on him cause he messed things up all the time, not cause he was gay (hurt himself every camp out, broke things, etc). Whether or not I think BSA should change is also not the discussion.

The only discussion should be whether or not they have a right to say no to certain groups, which I believe in this country, they do. Just as other groups have the right to do and follow through on as well.

[WolfVanZandt]

Well, the BSA is certainly changing in many ways. Used to, the BSA taught Scouts how to make, manage, and be responsible with money. Today, it's one of the primary things. But poor boys in poor families used to be able to do what anyone else did. Today, you have to have money to do just about anything. The scout leaders I remember as a child at least tried to be "morally straight" (the phrase, of course, has little to do with sexual orientation.), but today, they're foul mouth, love dirty jokes, and don't appreciate anyone telling them they can't do something that shouldn't be done. As for reverence, I once saw a campboree skit where an Eagle Scout killed two "Bible Thumpers" (the Eagle Scout were controlled by a mad doctor). It was an "awkward moment" but nothing came of it. Volunteers and District committee members pay for t-shirts with their campboree fees. The first regional campboree I helped with, I was directing traffic so I was late getting over to the orientation. They had already given out most of the t-shirts that had been ordered by size for the people who were preregistered (myself included). The guy handing them out said, "All we have is an extra large," threw it at me, and left. I tried to get it changed for something I could actually wear and gave the one I had to our district leader - I never got a replacement. While I was in the District, I got about a half a dozen t-shirts. For some reason, they thought I should be wearing Extra Large sizes (which swallow me whole) and I don't have a single Scouting t-shirt I can wear. Scouts might be trustworthy, but their leaders aren't - not in Alabama, anyway.

Yeah, Scouting has changed.

I still support the BSA because the boys that come through it are still excellent members of society - but I don't know how with the staff that provide role models.

But, then, the world's changing, isn't it?

In my area, no boy has been discriminated against. Gay scouts have never been barred while I've been in the Scouts - they just are discouraged from doing Gay things (Is that discrimination? If it is, let me tell you, it's disconcerting to a kid to wake up to find his "equipment" in a fellow camper's hand - that from experience, and kids aren't blessed with the self control that adults (are supposed to) have.) Two years ago, the BSA was proclaiming that they would not ever change their policies on homosexuality. I guess the Scout creed doesn't include anything about "A Scout is consistent."

As far as whether Scouts should allow Gays into scouting - I dunno. Heck, I'm barely human.........

[JPGreco]

WolfVanZandt,
I agree with a lot of what you said. I mean, I wasn't much of a religious person growing up, which is supposed to be part of scouts, so there are many of us who went through scouts, and probably plenty of Eagles like me who weren't 100% on every aspect of scouting, but I learned soooooooooooooo much from scouts. I just hope that whatever the reason for the change in policy, that A) its not financially motivated and B) it actually has the best interest of the kids at heart and there is a plan for it. I'm sure there are Eagle scouts out there who are gay and would love the opportunity to be advisers on the matter, and they would be the best people for that job.

[Sarge47]

If you ever decided to look up the history of the BSA you'd discover the following:

Early Rivals to BSA—Some of the early, non-BSA Scouting-type programs in the US included:

• 'American Boy Scout' (ABS, changed to 'US Boy Scout' in 1913), founded in May, 1910, by publisher William Randolph Hearst. There was much confusion related to fund-raising between ABS and BSA. Hearst left the organization in late 1910 due to disagreements over fund-raising. ABS Scouts drilled with rifles (often loaded), and at least one ABS Scout was shot to death by a fellow Scout.
• 'Boy Scouts of the United States', with retired US Army Colonel Peter Bomus as Chief Scout. Bomus briefly joined the BSA National Council.
• 'Knights of King Arthur', Frank Lincoln Masseck (joined National Council).
• 'Knights of the Holy Grail', Perry Edwards Powell (joined National Council).
• 'Lone Scouts of America', founded in 1915 by BSA founder Boyce, who had become dissatisfied with the BSA, and created the LSA for boys living in isolated areas. The LSA merged with the BSA in 1923.
• 'National Scouts of America', Colonel William Verbeck (joined National Council).
• 'New England Boy Scouts' (NEBS), a spin-off from the 'US Boy Scout'. I believe the 'Rhode Island Boy Scouts' (RIBS) were also part of the NEBS; RIBS merged with BSA in 1917, and still exists today as the BSA's Narragansett Council. It is interesting that the BSA's Boys Life magazine was started by RIBS member Joseph Lane in 1911 (BSA purchased the magazine in 1912).
• 'Peace Scouts of California'
• 'Sons of Daniel Boone' (later called Boy Pioneers of America), Daniel Beard. Beard became BSA's National Scout Commissioner in 1910, but never fully merged his organization with BSA, even though he remained an active part of national BSA leadership for the rest of his life.
• 'Woodcraft Indians', Ernest Thompson Seton. Seton became BSA's first Chief Scout, until forced to resign in 1915. He never fully merged his organization with BSA, and attempted to revitalize it as the Woodcraft League after 1915. There are still a handful of Woodcraft organizations around the world today.
• YMCA Scouts—The YMCA sponsored a number of early troops, and merged them with the BSA program starting in June, 1910.

That being said, I doubt that the part that reads "morally straight" ever had anything to do with "sexual orientation." What 11 year old boy is going to worry about it? It was designed to help keep a young boy honest. Not given to lying and stealing, especially when the boys were out in the field. Now, however, I must wonder at what new "Merit Badges" will be added!....

[1stimestar]

What I dislike is how this country forgets that private groups are supposed to have the right to make their own choice. BSA isn't a public entity (or shouldn't be*) and as such should have the right to say yes or no.

They absolutely have the right to say who they will or wont allow as members of their organization. Just like their sponsors have the right to say who they will or wont give their money to. It's all about the money. Enough sponsors pulled their funding showing they will not support an organization that discriminates that they changed their policy. It's all about the mula.

[WolfVanZandt]

Actually, with some recent changes in scouting, many churches are considering modifying their youth programs to provide alternatives to Scouting. In my part of the country, donations to Scouting are dropping, it's getting harder and harder to get adults to volunteer as leaders, and it's getting harder and harder for the Scouting program to compete with things like summer programs and youth sports. Of course, kids want to play video games and watch TV, parents don't want to be constantly shelling out money, and Scouting is no longer as "cool" as it used to be. Frankly, I'm pessimistic (or realistic) enough to think that Scouting is on the way out. I hope I'm wrong.

And, yes, I believe that 1stimestar is right. I've only recently dropped out of the Scouting program and I've never known anyone to effectively try and force the Scouts to admit anyone.