You DON'T need a battle rifle.

[2dumb2kwit]

I also got two perfect scores @ 1000yards on NRA regulation LR prone targets, with witnesses, with an AR.

Is that with 5.56?
If so, about how much does a 5.56 drop in 1,000 yds, and about how much energy does it have left, when it gets there?

[cowboy's daughter]

[SARKY]

Perfect score?..... as in 0? That is a perfect score, right?

[TresMon]

Is that with 5.56?
If so, about how much does a 5.56 drop in 1,000 yds, and about how much energy does it have left, when it gets there?

Yep, 5.56

My handload (80 grain Sierra matchkings) in my rifle required 28 3/4 moa elevation in a DA atmosphere of 2600' (DA= Density altitude, the way pilots and long range shooters calculate and express the thickness of the air on a given day for a given shot.)

Or in simple terms It dropped 287.5 inches.

It arrived on target in 1.75 ish seconds with roughly 220 ft. lbs of energy. Which is slightly more energy than a back up .380 pistol has at the muzzle.

[randyt]

that's some good shooting. Where does a guy like me learn to shoot like that or at least get close to that?

[TresMon]

Perfect score?..... as in 0? That is a perfect score, right?

Exactly. In NRA long range compettion you start out with a perfect score or 100%. Each hit in the 10 ring is a −0. each 9 ring is a −1, each 8 ring is a −2 points and so on. The x ring is a bonus. If you shot a 100% with 8 x's and I got a 100% with 9x, I win. So yes you want every shot to be a zero, or an X better yet.

that's some good shooting. Where does a guy like me learn to shoot like that or at least get close to that?

There's many long range shooting instructors that would be happy to help you.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yep, 5.56

My handload (80 grain Sierra matchkings) in my rifle required 28 3/4 moa elevation in a DA atmosphere of 2600' (DA= Density altitude, the way pilots and long range shooters calculate and express the thickness of the air on a given day for a given shot.)

Or in simple terms It dropped 287.5 inches.

It arrived on target in 1.75 ish seconds with roughly 220 ft. lbs of energy. Which is slightly more energy than a back up .380 pistol has at the muzzle.

The amount of energy is about what I expected, but I'm suprised at the amount of "drop". I expected much more.

[2dumb2kwit]

Each hit in the 10 ring is a −0. each 9 ring is a −1, each 8 ring is a −2 points and so on. The x ring is a bonus. If you shot a 100% with 8 x's and I got a 100% with 9x, I win. So yes you want every shot to be a zero, or an X better yet.

I have only shot at that distance one time. I was able to keep all 5 of my shots in the 10 ring.


OK...OK.....the 10 foot ring. LOL

[hunter63]

All this ballistic stuff is fine and cool and all, but really of no particular use other than KNOWING where and how your rifle shoots at the range.

Always good to know this before you decide to pull the trigger for anyone..

The OP deals with real life scenarios in a particular area and simple states the most people are not gonna need a long range sniper/tactical type firearm....as a foraging type firearm.

The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.......hence a lot of ammo requirements (heavy)

Personally I would never consider shooting at much of anything at 1000 yds or meters or what ever, unless it was made out of paper/metal,...Not big enough for a clean kill...hence still not my choice as a forging firearm.
JMHO

[LowKey]

RandyT, check into an Appleseed shoot in your area.
http://appleseedinfo.org/index.html
They'll give you the basics on rifle marksmanship drill. You have to practice before going so you know your rifle, and if you can, practice the three shooting positions until you can assume them quickly and comfortably (they'll help you with that if you don't know em). Then you have to practice (a lot) after to sharpen the skills. Many can walk away from an Appleseed comfortable out to 600 yards.

If you have CMP matches in your area (sanctioned or local) try hooking up with them too. Most of the guys who shoot competition are more than willing to help out a newb and won't lead them astray. At least the ones I've met doing bullseye pistol and CMP on a Garand team. Most of the guys shoot AR too. On the line they are all business though. You're on your own once you step on the competition line.

[Wildthang]

Yeah buddy! I love my AR as well. I have only shot it out to 500 yards but anything within that range is dead meat!

[randyt]

Thanks Lowkey, I'll be checking into that.

[TresMon]

All this ballistic stuff is fine and cool and all, but really of no particular use other than KNOWING where and how your rifle shoots at the range.

Always good to know this before you decide to pull the trigger for anyone..

The OP deals with real life scenarios in a particular area and simple states the most people are not gonna need a long range sniper/tactical type firearm....as a foraging type firearm.

The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.......hence a lot of ammo requirements (heavy)

Personally I would never consider shooting at much of anything at 1000 yds or meters or what ever, unless it was made out of paper/metal,...Not big enough for a clean kill...hence still not my choice as a forging firearm.
JMHO

Frist line of your quote:
Well no sir not just info to use AT THE RANGE. It's this info alone that allows Mil snipers and extended range hunters to do what they do, in the real world, in the field.

Per the rest of your quote:

I understand. Nor do I advocate using a .223 beyond whatever range it's energy drops below 500 ft'lbs of energy. The 500 lb. mark is what Army brains figure to state the maximum effective range of a weapon. Civvy ballistic techs use the same number- 500 Ft. Lb's of energy as the lower limit to ethically and cleanly kill dear. Obviously it's not a 1K yd. deer rifle. (per this rule of thumb it;s easily a 300 yard deer rifle.) For the record I trained with the little .223 at 1K yards for two years merely to (try) to give myself a PHD in doping thewind. I have a custom magnum of my build I use for (VERY) extreme long rage field applications.

However it appears to me you contradict yourself. From earlier in this thread:

....I would prefer a long shooter to keep the threat ..."Over there"

My dogma exactly. We woodsmen know that the more multipurpose an item taken into the woods is, the greater it's value. That's why I encourage and train others in long range shooting. In my mind the average gun guy is kinda like carrying claw hammer. He know;s what the head does, but he also has a claw on it too, but does not know it's there nor how to apply it. ANY caliber rifle 99% of guys carry into the woods can be used at much further range than they realize. Even your .22 LR- I train with mine out to 250 yards where I can hit "melons" 9 of 10 shots, more times than not 10/10.

If a guy teaches himself to use his (whatever) "meat for the pot" rifle at it's maximum range, now he has two tools in one. 1. A "meat for the pot rifle" and 2. a weapon to " keep the threat ..."Over there." He now is using the whole hammer. I teach "stand off" tactics for collapse scenario. One guy with his .22 rifle against the "zombies" at "normal range" can not come close to being as effective for the good team as a man or men who can compently use a .22 at it's maximum range - 250ish yards to pop melons.

Lastly:

The advantage of the .223/5.56 in a AR (or other configuration) is high cap mags, allowing a lot of projectiles in the air in a short amount of time.

Thats only the "head" side of the AR claw hammer. Since I can CONSISTENTLY engage zombie size targets at 700 yards and beyond- I have 3 rifles in one. 1. a meat for the pot rifle. 2. a high volume of fire defensive rifle. 3. and a Long range stand off rifle. I can hold off the zombies as far as the eye can see in most terrians here E. of the missippii river while my buddies and loved one's scurry safely away.

I suggest you use the whole hammer. Regardless of the size & color of hammer you prefer.

I think we believe and agree of the same things Mr. Hunter. Thanks for your input & various posts. I like them.

[Sourdough]

With my AR I'm 7 shots for 7 dead whitetail deer, last one was at a lazed 413 yards with a witness in a 3/4 value wind. He ran 20 yards straight towards us and crashed without another quiver.

I also got two perfect scores @ 1000yards on NRA regulation LR prone targets, with witnesses, with an AR.


Try that with your .22 mag...

Edit: originally took the statement to be against Ar's, in more reading found Winter was actually pro AR. Umm okay. I'm good now.

If it has to be tipped over at 1,000 yards, I'll just practice E&E. Second option would be my .300 Ultra Mag. with it's 12X optic.

[hunter63]

I don't have a problem with long range shooting, just not a small rifle at game.

Everyone should know how, get the training for technique, know your firearm, and practice a lot.

I'm not about to argue or even discuss personnel preferences, you stated yours, I stated mine... even though you kinda took my statement out on context, particularly with some one that is proficient at 1000 yds....LOL.

[TresMon]

If it has to be tipped over at 1,000 yards, I'll just practice E&E. Second option would be my .300 Ultra Mag. with it's X optic.

I understand sir but you'd have to agree that

I can hold off the zombies as far as the eye can see in most terrians here E. of the missippii river while my buddies and loved one's scurry safely away.

Is a valid skill that is good to have on behalf of your loved ones. THEN you can E & E!

Mr. Hunter I'm with ya sir and sorry you felt I took you out of context.

[Rick]

Fellahs, I'm the monkey that's throwin' the hammer around the cage just because I can. If I hit something out to a couple of hundred yards I'm usually honkin' the horn and tellin' folks about it all the way home. Ranges around here only go out to 100 yards anyway so all my battles will be held at that range even if I have to walk over to the enemy's line and ask them to scoot closer a couple of yards.

[Sourdough]

I understand sir but you'd have to agree that


Is a valid skill that is good to have on behalf of your loved ones. THEN you can E & E!
.

Snivle.......snivle......"I don't have any Loved ones........

[TresMon]

Snivle.......snivle......"I don't have any Loved ones........

I have heard there are not many ladies in AK. It was also related to me the if you have a woman and make her mad that it's not divorce up that way rather "you loose your turn" at least for a while.

From the pics I have seen there looks like there's plenty of wide open spaces in the tundra. How far have you stretched your 300 RUM out to?

[Rick]

You, uh, do know there are LADIES on here from AK, right? My only fear is the shock wave may reach all the way to me. Well, it's been nice knowing you, Tresmon. However short it was.