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Thread: Don't Talk to Cops

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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Default Don't Talk to Cops

    I learned something new today. Even though it was on another site (http://www.survivalblog.com/) I feel compelled to share it on the off chance that there are some members here who haven't come across it, or like me, just didn't know to what extent this is true.

    The comment below from JWR (to a story posted) referenced the two videos. I found them enormously informative because A. I've never done anything wrong, B. I've never had to talk to cops, C. If I were innocent and had nothing to hide I wouldn't hesitate to answer any questions the cops asked. Well, apparently I'm totally wrong and I'm glad I didn't have to find that out the hard way.

    JWR:
    "Our natural tendency as law-abiding citizens is to want to explain and justify our actions. But unfortunately in modern First World countries we live in very litigious societies. I concur with the sound advice in this law professor's lecture: Don't Talk to Cops. (View Parts 1 and 2.) Be calm and polite, but just refer them to your attorney. Here in the U.S., conviction of a felony means automatic disenfranchisement (forfeiture of your right to vote), and forfeiture of your right to own firearms. Don't put yourself at risk!"

    Part 1:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    Part 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&NR=1


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    What did they teach you in your CCW class.............???

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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    What did they teach you in your CCW class.............???
    I've never taken a CCW class, just a safety course and then had an instructor on the firing line right at the beginning.

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    When you take the CCW class they tell you, Never say anything for 24 hours if you are involved in a shooting, even if 30 objective observers saw the whole thing, and you were clearly in the right, even if it was caught on film, say nothing, talk to a lawyer. They even tell the cops who are involved in a shooting the same thing, say nothing for 24 hours.

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    That was one of the first things the pistol instructor told us. Then he repeated it many times throughout the two classes and on the range.

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    Administrator Rick's Avatar
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    Don't have to take a CCW class in Indiana. Don't have to talk to anyone either. I think if I ever get involved in a shooting I'll mime it. By the time they figure out what I'm saying it will be at least 24 hours.
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    Hall Monitor Pal334's Avatar
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    With no disrespect meant to you B.
    This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
    But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
    I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.
    Last edited by Pal334; 06-27-2010 at 07:16 PM. Reason: whew,, entering the word"no" in first sentence
    .45 ACP Because shooting twice is silly... The avatar says it all,.45 because there isn't a.46

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTs6a...eature=related

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pal334 View Post
    With no disrespect meant to you B.
    This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
    But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
    I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.
    Pal, did you watch all of that video?

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    Senior Member kyratshooter's Avatar
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    Every intelligent police officer I have ever known always gave me the exact same advice.

    "You have the right to remain silent, USE IT!"

    You do not have to prove your innocence, Asking for legal counsel is not an admission of guilt, and anything you say at any time can/will be used against you.
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    Hall Monitor Pal334's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batch View Post
    Pal, did you watch all of that video?
    Certainly did. That is why I commented as I did
    .45 ACP Because shooting twice is silly... The avatar says it all,.45 because there isn't a.46

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTs6a...eature=related

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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Pal, I got more from the videos than needing to have an attorney present at all times. It was an eye opening of sorts in pointing out how easy it is to incriminate yourself and that in fact, not saying anything at all is preferable to telling the truth.
    I have always believed and was taught just the opposite.
    But listening to the law professor and the cop changed my mind and made me go searching for answers even further.

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    http://www.usconstitution.net/miranda.html
    The Constitution reserves many rights for those suspected of crime. One of the fears of the Framers was that the government could act however it wished by simply saying an individual was a suspected criminal. Many of the rights in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, such as habeas corpus, the right to remain silent, and the right to an attorney, are designed to ensure that those accused of a crime are assured of those rights.

    Police were able to take advantage of the fact that not everyone knows their rights by heart. In fact, it is likely that most citizens could name a few of their rights as accused criminals, but not all of them. The police's position was that if the accused, for example, spoke about a crime without knowing that they did not need to, that it was the person's fault for not invoking that right, even if they did not know, or did not remember, that they had that right.

    This was the crux of the issue in Miranda v Arizona. In 1963, Ernesto Miranda was accused of kidnapping and raping an 18-year-old, mildly retarded woman. He was brought in for questioning, and confessed to the crime. He was not told that he did not have to speak or that he could have a lawyer present. At trial, Miranda's lawyer tried to get the confession thrown out, but the motion was denied. In 1966, the case came in front of the Supreme Court. The Court ruled that the statements made to the police could not be used as evidence, since Miranda had not been advised of his rights.

    Since then, before any pertinent questioning of a suspect is done, the police have been required to recite the Miranda warning. The statement, reproduced below, exists in several forms, but all have the key elements: the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney. These are also often referred to as the "Miranda rights." When you have been read your rights, you are said to have been "Mirandized."

    Note that one need not be Mirandized to be arrested. There is a difference between being arrested and being questioned. Also, basic questions, such as name, address, and Social Security number do not need to be covered by a Miranda warning. The police also need not Mirandize someone who is not a suspect in a crime.

    As for Ernesto Miranda, his conviction was thrown out, though he did not become a free man. The police had other evidence that was independent of the confession, and when Miranda was tried a second time, he was convicted again. After release from prison, Miranda was killed in a barroom brawl in 1976.

    The following is a minimal Miranda warning, as outlined in the Miranda v Arizona case.

    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense.

    The following is a much more verbose Miranda warning, designed to cover all bases that a detainee might encounter while in police custody. A detainee may be asked to sign a statement acknowledging the following.

    You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. Do you understand?
    Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand?
    You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. Do you understand?
    If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Do you understand?
    If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. Do you understand?
    Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?
    http://www.usconstitution.net/miranda.html
    These are your rights guaranteed by the Constitution, USE Them Things can and will be taken out of context and used against you, IMO
    Last edited by Justin Case; 06-27-2010 at 09:17 PM. Reason: add to

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    Hall Monitor Pal334's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BENESSE View Post
    Pal, I got more from the videos than needing to have an attorney present at all times. It was an eye opening of sorts in pointing out how easy it is to incriminate yourself and that in fact, not saying anything at all is preferable to telling the truth.
    I have always believed and was taught just the opposite.
    But listening to the law professor and the cop changed my mind and made me go searching for answers even further.
    Now I more fully understand your point. Having been a Fed and retired ,my perspective was that he was being an alarmist. I was not looking at it like you were /are (not having been in the "system"). So it may have been more informative to the "average Joe" than I thought. But I still consider him to be a "blow heart"
    .45 ACP Because shooting twice is silly... The avatar says it all,.45 because there isn't a.46

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTs6a...eature=related

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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pal334 View Post
    Now I more fully understand your point. Having been a Fed and retired ,my perspective was that he was being an alarmist. I was not looking at it like you were /are (not having been in the "system"). So it may have been more informative to the "average Joe" than I thought. But I still consider him to be a "blow heart"
    But then how do you respond to what the cop said in part 2?
    And what would you recommend one does instead?

    This all goes against everything I believed so I'm curious, of course.

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    Quality Control Director Ken's Avatar
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    Oh, I get it. I've posted that advice here a hundred times, but because ANOTHER lawyer gave that same advice somewhere else you think it's worth a thread, huh?

    When I taught law, one of my lectures was titled "The Policeman is Not Your Friend." My class size usually grew from around 60 to around 150 for that one lecture. Yeah, I had some police officers in my classes. Some agreed and some took offense.

    Funny thing is, I've represented several police officers over the years. Most of them say, "I shoulda' kept my mouth shut when I was called into the station."

    Most people think that they can talk their way ouit of a situation. Police officers are worse. Lawyers are worst of all. When questioned by a police officer decline to answer ANY questions other than to give your name, address, and date of birth. Beyond that, SHUT UP!!!! The most innocent sounding questions can be the most dangerous.


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    Quality Control Director Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    I've had some clients (including police officers) over the years who have contacted me because they were asked to submit to an "interview" with the authorities. I always urge them, in the strongest possible terms, to decline the interview and to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!!! In more than one instance, I have had clients sign acknowledgements attesting to the fact that I have advised them to remain silent and that they have chosen to not follow my advice.
    http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...0&postcount=37
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    Senior Member 2dumb2kwit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pal334 View Post
    With no disrespect meant to you B.
    This is the silliest bunch of whooey I have ever heard of. Common sense says that an attorney should be engaged in the event you have been involved some sort of serious event.
    But that silly "Professor" is unfortunately misusing his position of trust as an educator to make an issue where one does not exist. WHy does he think an attorney is needed for every contact with an LEO?
    I wonder what is in it for him to cause so much distrust.
    You post this, yet you distrust the Arizone LEO's to enforce what is basically a copy of federal law?
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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit View Post
    You post this, yet you distrust the Arizone LEO's to enforce what is basically a copy of federal law?
    Well, I've come around on that one 2D, and I'm not too proud to admit it. I just needed time to read everything there is about it from all sides of credible sources...so...go Arizona!

    This thing about "Don't talk to cops" is a new one for me. (as of today new)
    It's just not how I was raised and (fortunately) I have no personal experience or know anyone who had a run in with the law to lead me to believe it to be true. But the sources are credible, and the examples given make sense.
    And I do have an open mind even if Ken's on board with it.

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    Senior Member BENESSE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Oh, I get it. I've posted that advice here a hundred times, but because ANOTHER lawyer gave that same advice somewhere else you think it's worth a thread, huh?
    I apologize counselor, just wasn't aware that you said the same thing. Glad you did though--makes me feel better. But now, here's a question:
    Say I find myself in a situation where I would need a criminal lawyer. But I don't have a lawyer on stand-by because I never needed one before. What do I do, how do I choose one quick?
    (Don't know if Jerry Spence would pick up the phone and I wouldn't be inclined to call 1-800-innocent)

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