Helping The Illegal Border Crossers.

[woodsman86]

Though it may be compassionate to leave food and water for them, it is still wrong. If they decide to cross without the proper supplies then they have chose their fate. After a few die, it may discourage others from attempting the same thing. To justify it with using indirect action is still guilty by association. If I were to set up watering station in the desert a few miles away from a prison to help prisoners escape the heat while on the run, would that not be wrong. It is the same idea as setting up water holes on trails used by the criminals entering the United States. We want to discourage them, not aid them. The American Dream is for legal immigrants, not criminals. If you want to show compassion for your fellow human, volunteer at a homeless shelter, they are full of people who lost their jobs to undocumented workers being aided by food and water on the trail to the land of free government handouts. I personally see it as an invasion from a foreign nation and Mexico should be the ones sealing the border. Just like the United States has to prevent people from illegally entering Canada.

[Justin Case]

Many, MANY Have died trying to cross ,

REGION: Report shows as many as 5,600 illegal immigrants have died along border

OCT 2009,

Thousands of illegal immigrants have died in the last 15 years trying to cross the inhospitable terrain along the U.S.-Mexico border, but an exact number is hard to come by, according to a study released last week by civil rights groups.
Estimates ranged from 3,861 deaths to 5,607 deaths, according to the report produced by the American Civil Liberties Union and Mexico's National Commission on Human Rights.
The report recommended better tracking of the number of deaths and more resources for search and rescue missions.
The groups blamed the deaths on border enforcement strategies enacted by U.S. authorities, such as Operation Gatekeeper, to reduce the number of illegal immigrants coming into the country.
They also blamed Mexico for not having more effective search and rescue resources south of the border.
"The current policies in place on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border have created a humanitarian crisis," said Kevin Keenan, executive director of the ACLU of San Diego & Imperial Counties.
Officials with the Department of Homeland Security say its search and rescue teams have saved numerous lives at the border.
Authorities blame the deaths on unscrupulous smugglers who abandon people in dangerous terrain.
In 1998, the federal government formed the Border Patrol's Search, Trauma and Rescue team, known as Borstar, to help people stranded deep in the brush or desert.
"Customs and Border Protection remains committed to ensuring a safe and secure border," said Lloyd Easterling, a spokesman for the agency, in a written statement.
"By working closely with federal, state and local law enforcement and humanitarian groups on both sides of the border, CBP focuses its efforts on preventing illegal border crossings and targeting human smugglers," Easterling said.
In the report, the civil rights groups recommend the creation of a binational information center to gather data on the deaths.
That system also would help families find information about lost loved ones, immigrant rights activists say.
Other recommendations include:
-- Increasing resources for search and rescue efforts;
-- Increasing cooperation with nongovernment, humanitarian groups at the border; and
-- Reviewing and reconsidering border enforcement policies.
Since Operation Gatekeeper was introduced in October 1994, keeping an accurate number of the deaths along the border has been a problem, immigrant rights advocates have said.
The Department of Homeland Security, which includes the Border Patrol and other immigration enforcement agencies, puts the number of deaths at 3,861.
However, that number does not include bodies found on the Mexican side of the border or bodies recovered by local law enforcement agencies, such as local sheriff's departments, according to the report.
The report adds numbers kept by Mexico's foreign ministry and media sources to come up with a total of 5,607 deaths that have occurred between 1994 and 2008.
Others go undiscovered, according to the report.
Immigrant rights groups say Operation Gatekeeper and similar enforcement efforts along the U.S.-Mexico border are responsible for the deaths because they were designed to push illegal immigrant traffic into the mountains and deserts.
The strategy was to use the dangerous terrain as a deterrent.
It did not work, according to Wayne Cornelius, former director of the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at UC San Diego.
Illegal immigrant traffic simply shifted to states such as Arizona and Texas.
As evidence, the civil rights groups pointed to the number of deaths that have occurred in those areas.
Of the 390 deaths reported by the Border Patrol in fiscal year 2007-08, 171 occurred in the Tucson, Ariz., area. The second largest number of deaths, 97, occurred in the McAllen, Texas, area, according to the report.
Immigrant rights activist Enrique Morones said that undocumented people are willing to risk their lives because they want to be able to provide a better life for their families.
"These are human beings who have no legal way to get into this country," Morones said. "There is no Statue of Liberty for them, no Ellis Island, no line for them to get into. So they are killed by Operation Gatekeeper."
Anti-illegal immigration groups say people crossing the border illegally should take responsibility for their own actions.
"People have a personal responsibility not to act recklessly and put their lives in danger," said Ira Mehlman, a spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which urges stricter immigration policies.
U.S. Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Solana Beach, said through a spokesman that it is not Operation Gatekeeper that is to blame for the deaths at the border, but the unscrupulous employers willing to give them jobs that are leading them to put their lives in danger.
The report is available at http://www.aclusandiego.org.

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sd...d8e54870e.html

[Old GI]

As did Napolitano. She was governor of Arizona before finding her way into Homeland Security.

During her confirmation waltz, she said Arizona doesn't have a problem. Oh yeah, no nationally elected official wants tackle this.

[BENESSE]

Sad as it is JC, it comes down to this: (from article above)
..."people crossing the border illegally should take responsibility for their own actions.
"People have a personal responsibility not to act recklessly and put their lives in danger..."

[Justin Case]

Yep,,,, And think of what these water station people have done, They have created a watering hole that they expect to be there, what if these people stop putting out food and water, Then , In a Way THEY are going to cause many deaths,

[BENESSE]

Yep,,,, And think of what these water station people have done, They have created a watering hole that they expect to be there, what if these people stop putting out food and water, Then , In a Way THEY are going to cause many deaths,

They won't CAUSE deaths, they are just not doing anything to prevent them. Certainly better than shooting them for illegally trespassing. JMO.

[panch0]

I understand what you mean trabitha, its just no win situation, but we are human beings and showing a bit of that humanity when needed is what one should strive for.


woodsman, to say let them die if they are not prepared is a cruel thing to say. So if some young kids go into the woods and get lost and are not prepared you would just turn around and say oh well its their fault if they die so be it. Don't bother trying to help them. They will an example to the rest. We all know there have been countless deaths this way as well and folks don't learn. It take good people to try and help those in dire straights, not help them break the law.

Before anyone calls me a beading heart I believe in my heart that if anybody broke into my home to cause me or my family harm I would try to pump at least two into them to defend my family. Thats a whole other thread. So I aint a sissy boy cry baby. I just think humanitarian aid is a good thing, not an answer to the problem.

If they bait one station one day and another another day I think they would still come especially the desperate ones in need, to whom I refer to when saying those who need help. I am not talking about a drive through fro illegals. They are tools to save lives to those who are in a dangerouse situation. If they choose to bypass the water stations then they had better be prepared for the desrt and they are on their own. There is only so much one can do to help those in desperate need.

For the record I am against illegals as well, and it ticks me off when they disregard our laws here. One thing to remember is that we are still human and so are they. I know you guys know where I am coming from and I you. I respect your opinions as these are just mine.

[Ole WV Coot]

I am against illegals and agree they should be stopped. Once upon a time around 45yrs ago I could eat lunch watching someone bleed out and it didn't bother me. I am older and I do believe in a little compassion like food & especially water then at a decently sealed border send em back. I'm maybe a little soft now but if you're determined to have another human die of thirst sit and watch, you might just change your mind some.

[woodsman86]

I understand what you mean trabitha, its just no win situation, but we are human beings and showing a bit of that humanity when needed is what one should strive for.


woodsman, to say let them die if they are not prepared is a cruel thing to say. So if some young kids go into the woods and get lost and are not prepared you would just turn around and say oh well its their fault if they die so be it. (No, they would be legally here and therefore entitled to aid)Don't bother trying to help them. They will an example to the rest. We all know there have been countless deaths this way as well and folks don't learn. It take good people to try and help those in dire straights, not help them break the law. (you are helping them break the law by providing them supplies to commit a crime by successfully entering the country ILLEGALLY)

Before anyone calls me a beading heart I believe in my heart that if anybody broke into my home to cause me or my family harm I would try to pump at least two into them to defend my family. (Is this country not our home? Since I took an oath to defend my country, shall I pump two in the chest everyone entering it illegally? These are not people fleeing a communist nation, they are people looking for free handouts at the United States’ expense)Thats a whole other thread. So I aint a sissy boy cry baby. I just think humanitarian aid is a good thing, not an answer to the problem. (AID is the problem here, whether humanitarian or not you are aiding criminals)

If they bait one station one day and another another day I think they would still come especially the desperate ones in need, to whom I refer to when saying those who need help. I am not talking about a drive through fro illegals. They are tools to save lives to those who are in a dangerouse situation. If they choose to bypass the water stations then they had better be prepared for the desrt and they are on their own. There is only so much one can do to help those in desperate need. (Yes, we already offer legal immigration and citizenship to anybody, something many nations do not offer)

For the record I am against illegals as well, and it ticks me off when they disregard our laws here. One thing to remember is that we are still human and so are they. I know you guys know where I am coming from and I you. I respect your opinions as these are just mine.

Using this rationale we should open our entire border to illegals in order to prevent the harm that might come to them if they had to sneak through the security forces. This is your opinion, but to be fair you should aid all criminals and not just the Mexicans. Would you put food and water for a homeless serial rapist terrorizing your community? He might starve to death without it.

To wrap up everything, as far as compassion I support it. Once captured we should take care of them as if they were our own until we deport them. Just like I have done fighting in Iraq with armed enemies, once incapacitated or captured we treat them humanely. We would never aid them before hand with food and water, that is why our country places sanctions on places like North Korea, where everyone is starving.

-Until the area is secure, God help them because I won't.

[woodsman86]

I am against illegals and agree they should be stopped. Once upon a time around 45yrs ago I could eat lunch watching someone bleed out and it didn't bother me. I am older and I do believe in a little compassion like food & especially water then at a decently sealed border send em back. I'm maybe a little soft now but if you're determined to have another human die of thirst sit and watch, you might just change your mind some.

I'm not determined to kill them, but if they aren't prepared that is not my concern. Nor would I let someone die if I could help them after the fact. This is the only place I have been where you try to kill the people trying to kill you and then help them if you don't manage to kill them. Geneva Convention, though the US seems to be the side always playing by the rules.

[Justin Case]

Tonights evening News,

2 Bodies Found in Pinal County Desert
Updated: Monday, 07 Jun 2010, 6:14 PM MDT
Published : Monday, 07 Jun 2010, 12:14 PM MDT

Adapted for the Web by
myFOXPhoenix.com Staff
CASA GRANDE - Pinal County officials have found two dead bodies in the desert off I-8 and milepost 150, Not far from where a deputy was shot and injured in April.

Dispatch received a 911 call in Spanish from a man Sunday night stating that he and a friend had been shot. Then the cell phone signal was lost.

About an hour later, officials found the victims, dead. Two weapons, one an automatic rifle, were found nearby.

Detectives say the bodies were found about 500 to 1,000 yards from some sort of migrant camp.

"Detectives are telling us that this scene is in an area considered a migrant camp, where people are dropped off... a transition point where they'll be picked up and moved to drop houses in the valley," says Lt. Tamatha Villar.

Full Story and Video > http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...ounty_06072010

[BENESSE]

With all due respect JC...what's your point?

[Justin Case]

With all due respect JC...what's your point?

"Detectives are telling us that this scene is in an area considered a migrant camp, where people are dropped off... a transition point where they'll be picked up and moved to drop houses in the valley," says Lt. Tamatha Villar.

My Point is, Why are there "Camps" for illegals ? This country Bulldozes Homeless camps of American Citizens yet allow these Known Illegal Immigrant campgrounds to exist, Plus, I posted a news story Relevant to the thread .

[BENESSE]

Well obviously they need a "holding area" for the illegals before they are dispatched back home. So call them camps...whatever. Would it be better if they were sent to jail (there's hardly any room) or do you think someone ought to be on call 24/7 to escort them back across the border?
Seriously, it's not like the possibilities are endless.

[Justin Case]

Well obviously they need a "holding area" for the illegals before they are dispatched back home. So call them camps...whatever. Would it be better if they were sent to jail (there's hardly any room) or do you think someone ought to be on call 24/7 to escort them back across the border?
Seriously, it's not like the possibilities are endless.

HUh ?? The Camps they are talking about are places where Coyotes bring Illegals out in the desert where they are supposed to be picked up and taken to various drop houses in the united states, My Point is, The border Patrol and Sheriff know about these places yet they do nothing about it, (Most of the time) In Other words, This Illegal activity is being allowed to continue, This place where they found the murdered people last night is the same place where that Sheriff Deputy was shot by an AK47 a couple weeks ago, You should follow that link to the story, There are even signsm Payed for by Tax Payers warning American Citizens that the area is a main artery fro illegal crossing, ?????? CRAZY !

[woodsman86]

It would be wrong for us to bulldoze the criminals' camps and put them at risk of harm. Sounds like an area they raid when they need a good news story for PR. Just think, this is happening on US soil.

[panch0]

Using this rationale we should open our entire border to illegals in order to prevent the harm that might come to them if they had to sneak through the security forces. This is your opinion, but to be fair you should aid all criminals and not just the Mexicans. Would you put food and water for a homeless serial rapist terrorizing your community? He might starve to death without it.

To wrap up everything, as far as compassion I support it. Once captured we should take care of them as if they were our own until we deport them. Just like I have done fighting in Iraq with armed enemies, once incapacitated or captured we treat them humanely. We would never aid them before hand with food and water, that is why our country places sanctions on places like North Korea, where everyone is starving.

-Until the area is secure, God help them because I won't.

I don't see any rational that says leave the border open. As for the rapist, he has a home here and is not in a desert environment. Criminals here go home after committing a crime. Totally different scenarios. These folks are out in the desert/brush. The enemy you are fighting over there is armed and wants you dead, these are not the same as the ones you face. They are folks like you and I but come from a crappy country and want something better. They are breaking the laws . Lets deport them and /or fine them, but to leave them for dead ain't right. A little common sense here goes a long way.

As for your service, Thank You for it and stay safe!

[panch0]

It would be wrong for us to bulldoze the criminals' camps and put them at risk of harm. Sounds like an area they raid when they need a good news story for PR. Just think, this is happening on US soil.

It is unbelievable that this happens. Knowing where they are and not doing something about it is crazy. You are right about the PR.

[Ole WV Coot]

It's all image, PR and politics. I don't really think anyone gives a nickle for any individual unless it gets them praise from somewhere. It's a no win situation, kinda like strapping a bomb on a kid and sending him to get candy from the GIs. Shoot the kid and you are in deep do-do, don't shoot and you and your buddies die. Innocent people on both sides will die and good men will be punished if they do their jobs.

[Justin Case]

So they put up a few signs ? crazy,, bring in a few armed troops and STOP IT !
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Violence prompts strong warning at monument

Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:49 AM MDT
PHOENIX (AP) — An increase in smuggling violence at the Sonoran Desert National Monument about 80 miles south of Phoenix has prompted a stronger warning to visitors about drug and immigrant traffickers passing through the public lands, officials said Tuesday.

The monument and three other federal lands in Arizona already have signs warning visitors that they may encounter smugglers. But 11 new signs have recently been erected and two more were planned at the Sonoran Desert National Monument.

The new signs warn visitors about speeding smuggling vehicles and instruct them to walk away when seeing something suspicious and avoid abandoned vehicles and backpacks because they might contain drugs stashed there by smugglers.

Tom Lister, the Bureau of Land Management’s chief law enforcement ranger in Arizona, said authorities felt a stronger warning was needed because the area is near where a Pinal County deputy was shot in a confrontation with marijuana smugglers in April and where two men suspected of being involved in smuggling were fatally shot earlier this month.

Signs warning visitors of smugglers have been put up in the past in southern Arizona at the Sonoran Desert National Monument, Cabeza Prieta National Wildlife Refuge, Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument and Coronado National Forest.

The new signs were erected at the Sonoran Desert National Monument’s access points south of Interstate 8 between Casa Grande and Gila Bend.

While the monument isn’t located directly on the border, it’s used as a pathway for traffickers headed to Phoenix, a busy hub for moving illegal immigrants and marijuana across the United States.

Smuggling at the monument declined from 2005 through 2008 but is picking up again, Lister said.

Authorities said they weren’t telling visitors to stay out of the monument, though the new signs encourage people to use the monument’s lands north of the interstate.
http://mohavedailynews.com/articles/...1363806994.txt