Gun control. social engineering?

[NightShade]

illegal to own guns in D.C. = murder capital of the world


sure.... take guns away... that'll do it

[Rick]

And the same can be said for Chicago. There was no decrease in crime when guns were outlawed.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yet when I get off work, in Va., and go to one of many gun shops, in Va., I can't buy a handgun, because I live 30 miles away, on the other side of the N.C. state line. Mind you, I have passed more than enough background checks, and I have a C.C. Permit, which makes it legal for me to carry a concealed handgun, in Va.

BTW, If I were a Va. resident, I could only buy one handgun, per month.

Do you think any Virginians are safer, because of these laws?

[BENESSE]

You're right Benesse. And...you'll find that some had been declared incompetent, which should have precluded them from acquiring guns and some "borrowed" guns from relatives.

There are more than enough laws on the books today to deal with folks that should not receive weapons. In fact, a few too many in my book.

That's why I said in my first sentence that we should enforce all the laws that are on the books now. If that's the only thing we do and nothing else, it would be a huge improvement.
Unfortunately, sometimes innocent, law-abiding people have to suffer because of the few bad apples (we seem to have more than our share--what's up with that?!)
I get bent out of shape for example when the comedy channel bleeps out bad words on the off chance there might be children watching.(and I don't even have kids)
Why am I being punished because there are parents who don't supervise their kids?
Don't get me started.

[crashdive123]

That's why I said in my first sentence that we should enforce all the laws that are on the books now. If that's the only thing we do and nothing else, it would be a huge improvement.
Unfortunately, sometimes innocent, law-abiding people have to suffer because of the few bad apples (we seem to have more than our share--what's up with that?!)
I get bent out of shape for example when the comedy channel bleeps out bad words on the off chance there might be children watching.(and I don't even have kids)
Why am I being punished because there are parents who don't supervise their kids?
Don't get me started.

Kind of interesting that you picked that as an example. Seems that the First Amendment and the Second Amendment are under assault.

[2dumb2kwit]

Why am I being punished because there are parents who don't supervise their kids?
Don't get me started.

Yep....that's pretty much how I feel about a lot of the gun laws.

[Ole WV Coot]

I will personally cut a nice stump in either WV or KY for anyone who wants to tell us poor backward Rednecks the "sin" of owning guns. You won't mind if the stump is next to a tall tree with a short rope will you? Open invitation, just give me a few minutes to get a crowd.

[Beo]

"A former soldier who handed a discarded shotgun in to police faces at least five years imprisonment for "doing his duty". Paul Clarke, 27, was found guilty of possessing a firearm at Guildford Crown Court on Tuesday – after finding the gun and handing it personally to police officers on March 20 this year."

I am a former soldier too, but I am smart enough to know that you cannot bring any weapon into any courthouse anywhere in the U.S. even if you have a CCW permit, it is illegal to do so. He may have been a former soldier doesn't male him the sharpest pencil in the box. If he found it outside he should've stayed with it and had someone go inside and get the police, or went in himself after checking to make sure it was unloaded.
Beo,

Now after reading the entire article, hmmm, I feel sorry for the guy. He found it (says he) in his garden and took it to the police, a good thing to get it off the street, he might have been questioned but to arrest him and lock him up makes no sense to me now. But ignorance of the law is no excuse so he got f**ked in the end for doing a good deed. What a mess.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Laws don't stop criminals.... Cops do. Instead of making more laws why not make more cops? Your money would be better spent. Criminals are criminals because they don't care about laws. You can make 14 gazillion laws, not a single one will stop a criminal, not even those that carry the death penalty. By making more laws all you are doing is making more prisons, Criminals eventually get out of those. It has been proven that all Prisons are is a means for criminals to get a better criminal education. Think of prison as Criminal College. All you have to do to be accepted is break a law,resulting in better trained harder to catch Felons. Is THAT what you REALLY want???

Anyone who is against an armed populace needs to check out Kennesaw, Ga. It boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. All Citizens of this city MUST own a GUN. Since Felons can't legally own a gun, you won't find any there. Reduce the criminal population and crime rates PLUMMET. Funny how that works huh? Like the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". The gun is just an instrument of intent. Take away that instrument and another will take it's place. Eventually we will all be forced to resort to sticks and stones, A "New" Stone Age. Now does that really sound like progress? Next on the "chopping block" will be knives, Bows and arrows. Followed by Hammers,screwdrivers,and lead pipes,and so on and so on.

As morbid as this will sound, I would rather be shot to death than beat to death, stabbed, or strangled. If "they" are going to kill me, at least let it be quick. Because if their intent is to kill me then they will find a way. It won't matter what "tool" you leave them to do it with.

[BENESSE]

Anyone who is against an armed populace needs to check out Kennesaw, Ga. It boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. All Citizens of this city MUST own a GUN.

Maybe that's the thing to do in the rest of the country since nothing else seems to work. But I can't help wondering...

How will it play out in large, diverse, crime ridden cities?
How will it affect road rage situations?
What new laws would we need to pass to keep track of all the additional firearms (can't keep track of what we have now), enforce proper handling, regulate how and when they can be used, (self-defense only, feeling threatened, protecting your own property or maybe your neighbors', vigilantism, etc., etc) and prosecute all the new and different cases that are sure to crop up?
How would have Ft. Hood played out differently?
Would we charge people for not carrying at all times and taking personal responsibility when something bad happens to them? (hey, not LE problem, that's what you get for being stupid)
Where does LE come in, as a referee?

This has become an emotional issue and emotions are exactly the wrong thing to bring to a discussion.

[NightShade]

Personally, I think we'd have a politer, more patient society.....

[BENESSE]

Personally, I think we'd have a politer, more patient society.....

Yes sir, have a nice day!

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Criminals are criminals because they don't care about laws. You can make 14 gazillion laws, not a single one will stop a criminal, not even those that carry the death penalty.
^This is basically the definition of what a Criminal is^
Anyone who is against an armed populace needs to check out Kennesaw, Ga. It boasts one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. All Citizens of this city MUST own a GUN. Since Felons can't legally own a gun, you won't find any there. Reduce the criminal population and crime rates PLUMMET.
^ This is the ONLY SOLUTION that WILL work, Reducing the Criminal population, or criminal mentality. This is the only way to really Solve this dilemma. How this can be achieved, I do not know.
As morbid as this will sound, I would rather be shot to death than beat to death, stabbed, or strangled. If "they" are going to kill me, at least let it be quick. Because if their intent is to kill me then they will find a way. It won't matter what "tool" you leave them to do it with.

This is how I really honestly feel. If someone has the intent to kill another human being, they WILL find SOME way to do it. This is no different than if you feel you have to go across town, you WILL find a way. This argument against guns is no different than saying drunk drivers don't kill innocents, Cars do. Therefore all cars must be more regulated with tougher laws. Naw, Drunk Drivers aren't to blame. I know let's make it harder to get a car, that will solve the dilemma.

This has become an emotional issue and emotions are exactly the wrong thing to bring to a discussion.

If passionate feelings about my beliefs is emotional, then I am Guilty as charged. Try telling this to the Lawmakers who have heated Arguments and call them discussions. I'm not Spock(the Vulcan, not the baby psychologist). LOL

Some of my analogies above(like cars and Drunk Drivers) are sarcastic I know. The rationale is the same though, inanimate objects are NOT the cause of our troubles. We are the cause of our troubles. People not things. Changing "things" does not solve the problem, Changing peoples thoughts and the way we treat each other,IS the solution. In the end result this is the only one that will really and truly work. Whatever "Object" we are talking about is irrelevant, the heart of the problem lies with people. Only by changing peoples ways of treating and reacting to each other,will this Dilemma be solved.

Look there is already enough regulation. We can argue about who is and is not capable of owning a firearm. Rick and Crash are very stable examples already used in this thread(whom I have met AND trust to own firearms). There is nothing saying that either one doesn't fall, get a nasty bump on the head and become unstable. Or develop a brain tumor and become the next shooter in the Texas Campus Tower.(Heaven forbid that happens to anyone!! But it could) Trying to determine who is and is not WORTHY of gun ownership is trying to play God. We are not Omniscient and things will still happen no matter how much regulation is emplaced AND enforced.

Adding laws only bogs down an already sluggish system, by placing even More work on those that are already tasked to enforce laws that are current. No one is going to increase the forces tasked to enforce the existing laws,adding More laws only makes their jobs harder. Making their jobs harder only means that more criminals will get away,which means more of what no one wants... More crime and more criminals. As surely as some people see current criminals "getting away with it", They too will turn to criminal activities. This does not reduce the criminal population, it increases it. This means more people screaming for more laws to deal with the increasing criminal population,creating a Never-ending cycle. STOP making new laws for things that already have laws governing them! It makes matters worse not better. Sure clarify a law if it is not clear, but don't go making more!

This is a case where I feel "Less is more". Less laws for enforcement personnel to enforce, means better quality of the enforcement of those laws. Otherwise Cops are going to have to have a doctorate to be street beat cops,just to keep up with what laws they are supposed to enforce. It's like asking some one to memorize the complete set of Encyclopedia Brittanica. Can you do it? I know I can't. I don't think we should expect LEO's to do that either.

[BENESSE]

So Poco, how do you address some of the questions I've raised such as:

How would have Ft. Hood played out differently? (everyone was licensed and had a weapon...just not on their body at the time of the shooting)

Would we charge people for not carrying at all times and taking personal responsibility when something bad happens to them? (hey, not LE problem, that's what you get for being stupid)

Where does LE come in, as a referee?

Some things will have to be figured out ahead of time whether you like it or not. If you don't want to call it another law, call it common sense, whatever. Unlike folks on this forum (you keep preaching to the choir) the rest of the population doesn't have the first clue about handling firearms.
Can't just pass out guns to everyone and say, "have at it folks."

[BENESSE]

Oh, and another thing.

Call me naive, but firearms and emotions don't mix.
Rational thinking and a cool head, yes.
(At least that's what the NRA instructor at the firing range tells me.)

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm far from a spokesman, but I'll try to answer, a few.

Maybe that's the thing to do in the rest of the country since nothing else seems to work. But I can't help wondering...

How will it play out in large, diverse, crime ridden cities?

Just like it would anywhere else. It's still illegal for criminals to have guns.(But you have to remember, that they have them now.) I also think criminals would be a lot less likely to attack an innocent person, if they thought they may be armed.

How will it affect road rage situations?

There are two ways of looking at this.
1.If your unstable enough to kill, over bad driving, you can use your car....it's a deadly weapon.
2.If you are a bully, and get ticked off at someone driving, aren't you less likely to do something stupid, if you think they are armed, and can defend themselves?
What new laws would we need to pass to keep track of all the additional firearms (can't keep track of what we have now), enforce proper handling, regulate how and when they can be used, (self-defense only, feeling threatened, protecting your own property or maybe your neighbors', vigilantism, etc., etc) and prosecute all the new and different cases that are sure to crop up?

None! All those laws are already on the books.

How would have Ft. Hood played out differently?

That just depends on the people that were there, and what they could/would have done.

Would we charge people for not carrying at all times and taking personal responsibility when something bad happens to them? (hey, not LE problem, that's what you get for being stupid)
Where does LE come in, as a referee?

It would be just like it is now. Why would it be different? If you have a fire extinguisher, does that negate the need for firemen?

This has become an emotional issue and emotions are exactly the wrong thing to bring to a discussion.

And you are correct about the emotion, but there is plenty of info,(Stat's, studies, etc.) than can be seen on the web, if you want more info.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

So Poco, how do you address some of the questions I've raised such as:

How would have Ft. Hood played out differently? (everyone was licensed and had a weapon...just not on their body at the time of the shooting)
From what I have seen on TV,This is a case of one that "slipped through the cracks". If those that were licensed to carry had been carrying less lives would have been lost. I was once in the military. At one time we were EXPECTING a terrorist attack on our housing area. The Military with all it's intelligence "armed" us with unloaded weapons and bayonets. I thought this was supremely stupid so I armed myself,with 2 9mm pistols and extra magazines. Never fired a shot. But as we have often heard here - Better to have it and not need it,than to need it and not have it.
Would we charge people for not carrying at all times and taking personal responsibility when something bad happens to them? (hey, not LE problem, that's what you get for being stupid) Do we charge people for not driving? We can't make anyone do anything. But yeah if something happened and they weren't carrying it would be their problem. No different than if they were in an accident and didn't have insurance.

Where does LE come in, as a referee?
I think you missed my whole point about Kennesaw,Ga. It has nothing to do with requiring citizens to own a firearm. But by requiring them to own one, Felons CANNOT live there, thus reducing the crime in an unusual way... by eliminating the criminal population.

In actuality it would be no different than if you as a person who is legally allowed to CCW and shoot someone. You will be charged. Sorry but that is the way it happens. A CCW does not absolve you of any culpability in a shooting. You are not absolved of wrong-doing just because you have a CCW. Having a CCW is NOT a "license to kill". LE would do their job same as always. Just from a slightly different angle in a "justified shooting". Hey even LE has to go through an investigation, so would those with a CCW. This is another of my points. We all have to abide by the law or face the fiddler.
Some things will have to be figured out ahead of time whether you like it or not. If you don't want to call it another law, call it common sense, whatever. Unlike folks on this forum (you keep preaching to the choir) the rest of the population doesn't have the first clue about handling firearms.
Can't just pass out guns to everyone and say, "have at it folks."

You are so right!! Common Sense should PRECEDE Every law. I'm not preaching to anyone really. I'm sure there are some here who are on both sides of the fence of this issue. Like a Lot of things today, a lot of people just don't want to get involved. They think "What's the point? There are people from both sides arguing there views, what can I say?"
While some out there will NEVER carry a firearm. Some will. It doesn't matter what the law says. That's just the way it is. Even if it's legal AND encouraged, Some people just won't carry or even own one. If it's illegal there are those that will own one and carry...Once again it doesn't matter what the law says.(Think of terrorists in countries where it is illegal)

You are right we can't "just pass guns out to the populace and expect what is right from them." That is the current situation anyway. If you want a CCW you have to go through a process. Nothing would or should change there. You want one, go through the process. It all seems so simple to me.

[2dumb2kwit]

You know....I kinda like the gun is like a fire extinguisher, thingy!
I'm gonna have to use that one.

LOL...I can see it now...why would you want a fire extinguisher....Doesn't you town have a fire dept?

Are you expecting a fire? No. Then why would you have a fire extinguisher, in the house.

Fire extinguishers should be locked away, and only used by professionals. A child could set one of those things off in a closet, and suffocate.

I'm having tooooo much fun, with this!

[BENESSE]

And you are correct about the emotion, but there is plenty of info,(Stat's, studies, etc.) than can be seen on the web, if you want more info.

This is not an emotional issue for me nor do I need to be convinced one way or another.
I've gone through a lot of available data on the web and most of it can be used to support whatever view you hold. I don't want to get into spinning, I'm just curious about how people see their idea playing out, that's all.

[2dumb2kwit]

Oh, and another thing.

Call me naive, but firearms and emotions don't mix.
Rational thinking and a cool head, yes.
(At least that's what the NRA instructor at the firing range tells me.)

Agreed 100%!
It's called responsibility!