I ran across the Kel-Tec break down weapon. It's a .223 (5.56mm) and is 26.4 inches folded up. I'd never heard of them. Maybe you have:
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.html
Here's a write up on them:
http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm
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I ran across the Kel-Tec break down weapon. It's a .223 (5.56mm) and is 26.4 inches folded up. I'd never heard of them. Maybe you have:
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16a.html
Here's a write up on them:
http://www.equipped.org/Kel-Tec_SU-16_Review.htm
Oooh, I like that.
I'll have to see if I get one for my birthday in a couple of months.
The SHOT show is this weekend. Lots of new stuff. Go to: gunblast.com click on 2008 shot show.
Cute but it is a .223. Where is the knockdown power. When they make it in 7.62 Nato, I'll seriously look at them.
Don
I thought the .223 was good for anything up deer? I use hollow point ammo, does the job
OK.
My question would be - how tempermental is it? Does it need to be cleaned as often as an M-16? Or as often as an AK-47?
I own both, and the AK-47 is not very accurate - but it always works. The M-16 is more accurate, but needs to be cleaned every time you use it to ensure continued operation. With guns of this caliber, I believe I prefer the Ruger Mini-14.
If you are a good shot and you hit a deer right with it. Yes a .223 will take deer with a single shot.
I have an M-21. 7.62 with a Lika scope. I can take deer or elk with it from a great distance. It will back up a grizzly with the first shot and stop him cold with a head shot. Try that with a .223.
If that does not work? I will go get the 450 Weatherby or the M-85 out. But it better be a mean bear for me to waist a second shot.
I am not saying the .223 does not have its place. I just rather do the job with one shot then have to fire off 2 or 3 or 4 to do the job.
Don
If I go far enough out to see a bear I have a 12ga. w/3in slugs. I have not had a bear problem yet. Hope I don't.
The Kel-Tec break down weapon is one of those cheap weapons like High Point Firearms makes, it works and throws lead but the accuracy is not all that good, we (the Sheriff's Office) tested both the Kel-Tec and High Point Carbine as well and found the High Point better but lacking in accuracy and muzzle velocity (knock down power). The SU-16 (the one Rick is talking about) is a gas operated, self-loading rifle in .223 Remington caliber. Several unique features make the SU-16 a versatile sporting firearm. They also make the SUB-2000 a self-loading carbine for pistol cartridges. Different versions of the SUB-2000 will accept most modern handgun magazines.
The SU-16: After the first 450 rounds of .223, these rifles should have been pretty gunked up, but they were not. Since this is not a direct gas system, the expended gas and most of the residue go out the barrel or the gas port in the front. Very little gets into the bolt area. Most of the residue was easily cleaned. I cleaned the bores with Break-Free CLP every ten rounds, for the first 300 rounds, to break in the barrels, and then again at the end of the first firing session. After that I simply wiped down the insides and away we went again for another range session. Both models of the SU-16 can be folded down to about 27 inches by 7.5 inches. The Bravo model folds up nicely into my CamelBak HAWG pack and is ready anytime for a daily hike in the woods. It does not appear I am carrying a rifle, certainly not one in .223 caliber. The Alpha model is not much bigger. Both are easily stored in a back pack or day bag of the right size.
The Kel-Tec SU-16 rifle is light and uses a good, all-around intermediate cartridge which is easily obtained and a joy to shoot. It is also easy for the shooter to absorb the recoil, making it better suited for a woman than a shotgun or a heavier rifle in a survival scenario. Its most desirable feature is that it folds up and can be carried in a back pack or stowed away under a seat without getting in the way of other gear. Add to this an integral set of bi-pod legs and a flat top receiver with a picatinny rail system for mounting scopes and sights and you have a real winner. It is available in all 50 states, including California. The Treker in me says this is my new "ride." The Range Master in me says I would have no problem allowing this rifle to be carried on duty as a patrol rifle. What more could anyone say? Kel-Tec also has a line of accessories and several different variants with everything from a shorter barrel to a heavier barrel, better sights, parkerized barrels, and different colors such as OD green, coyote, and black. The "Charlie" model boosts a folding stock which still allows the shooter to still fire the rifle, though this stock is not legal in California.
We kept the M16 and the MP5 anyway.
I have an M6 Scout in 22 Hornet/410 in Stainless. It took a caribou in Alaska once (A survival story I'll tell someday). The 410 worked for ptarmigan, and it'll fire a slug with a fair degree of accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel
I'm also a fan of the AR-15. With the right load you can take large game with a well placed shot.
Its true that most of your hunting/trapping should be focused on small game. I took one of my survival hikes in Idaho a few years back, and kept fed with ground squirrels caught in snares (DON't use surplus booby trap wire; it can fail miserably...Another mad squirrel survival story I can tell one day :D)
BatCat
MSRP is $665.00 for the 16A model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel
Here's another one...Scope and all goes with it
http://http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91610734
BatCat
Link works....Did I do something wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
BatCat
Rock River has just shipped the first shipment of LAR 8's. Mine should arrive in Anchorage today, ain't been to town in 7 weeks, so tomorrow I get to go see humans. And pick up my Christmas present, from me to me. And food so I don't have to eat Poodle Pie.:)
No....It is .308 winchester (7.62 NATO). I have two 6.8 SPC AR-15's one is a pistol with a 10" barrel other is 16". I am getting the BATF&E tax stamp ($200.00) and converting the pistol to a SBR (Short Barrel Rifle). www.rockriverarms.comQuote:
Originally Posted by rebel
i can't speak to this particular gun, but one of my first guns ever was a Kel-Tec 9mm subcompact, and i hated it. the recoil is so horrendous that the trigger guard numbed your finger after about 5 shots. i don't know if that's a fault of all plastic-frame subcompacts, but i personally sold that gun after putting less than one box of ammo through it.
i own an armalite ar-7 scout .22 rifle and absolutely love it. of course, i love my 1911 more, but it's hardly a survival-type gun. i'd take the ar-7 any day.
just my two cents!
I have a rough idea what I am doing. If you want a thrill, I have a 3 1/4 Pound .12 Gage that fires a 3 1/2" shell, it will in a mega-second remove all meat from the finger behind the trigger guard. And if that don't rock your world I have handguns that will and have broken forearms.
Hey Bat Cat, I got a question for you about the M-6. I heard on this site that the company does not make them any more. Do you have a line on them? I ask because you have one.
Hey, call me crazy here, Hopeak. But isn't the idea to hurt the guy on the end with the hole in it? I have a DeerSlayer 12 ga. that I hunted with as a kid. It's knocked me down a time or two and sat my brother down a time or three. It's hanging over the fireplace. I call it Bob Hope. You know, thanks for the memories.
Theyre definitely not being made anymore. I've had mine for about 15 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
This site says they have them in stock
http://www.bodermansports.com/Firear.../m6_scout.html
Its a sweet rifle. The M6 is fully capable of taking deer sized game with the 22 Hornet (I used it to take a caribou in a real world survival situation once in AK, but thats another story)
Hope you find one
BatCat
Thanks BatCat, I will be ordering one this week, I own a henry M-7 22lr. carbine and usually
have that for outings. I have always liked the .410 and want another one. Thanks again.
Some guys like to wrap the barrel of those with paracord. If you do that just make certain you tie it loose or you insert something between the barrels. You WILL deform the barrels if you tie it too tight.
Thanks Rick.
Not a problem Sam; you're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
A word of advice: Get a scope mount, some see through rings, and a decent scope for it. Set the iron sights for the shotgun and sight the rifle in at 100 yards. The scope will really bring out the capabilities of the rifle.
Even at that range, a round placed at the base of the skull of a deer sized animal will make it drop like a sack of rocks
Good luck and have fun
BatCat
The Kel-Tec is a cheap made rifle or carbine depending on wich one you get, the Baretta Storm is much better made and accurate. In a firearm I truely believe you get what you pay for. You want cheap in price you get cheap in workmenship and performance, same goes with the High Point series of guns. My flinter is custom made, my shotgun is a tried, tested, and true Remington 870, my rifle is a Remington 700 chambered in the Whinchester .300 magnum with Redfield Accutrack Scope and a Ruger 10/22, my sidearms are my issue .40 S&W (Crap I think), I have my personal H&K USP .40 which is far better. Just my preferences.
Beo,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Definitely a true statement. I stacked a bunch of hacksaw blades and inserted them between the barrels
BatCat
Okay first off: BatCat said: The M6 is fully capable of taking deer sized game with the 22 Hornet (I used it to take a caribou in a real world survival situation once in AK, but thats another story) Your telling me you took a Caribou with a 22? I find that hard to believe, had to be a head shot then maybe. I'm not calling you liar, I just find it hard to believe and that doesn't mean it can't be done. I understand shot placement but dude a Caribou? Really I always thought they were tough. A .22 in a small game rifle... ah forget it. Anyway... This is a somewhat debateable subject and is sometimes confused with "Rifles for Protection in the Field" which means rifles carried for protection against large, dangerous predators. This rant of mine is about lightweight, takedown rifles that you might use to survive in the wilderness if things go really wrong. After the crash of a bush plane far from civilization, for example, or on a wilderness canoe, kayak, or raft trip after your boat is damaged beyond repair and you must either walk a great distance to safety or survive for an extended period of time before help can be expected to arrive. These are the firearms that you might use for subsistence hunting to help fend off starvation during such an ordeal, IMHO. This rant is not intended for the hunter far from civilization. He or she would be better off carrying a few extra boxes of ammunition for their primary hunting rifle for use in case of emergency, rather than another entire rifle. This is primarily for the explorer, fisherman, photographer, camper, treker or anyone else who is not in the wilderness primarily to hunt. All of the recommended rifles will be .22 caliber rimfires, as the ammunition is so much lighter than any centerfire cartridge that a far greater number of cartridges can be carried in the same amount of space. I suppose at this point it is reasonable to ask, "Why a rifle instead of a rimfire handgun, which would be smaller and lighter to carry?" My answer is that if you are an experienced handgun hunter embarking on a non-hunting wilderness expedition, by all means pack a .22 trail gun, or "kit gun" as they used to be called. But most people, including most big game hunters, are simply not sufficiently skilled with a handgun to be able to use a .22 pistol efficiently as a survival tool. If faced with potential starvation, a rifle will better serve them. The .22 LR should be the cartridge selected for a survival rifle. The object here is to kill small animals and birds for food, not blow them apart with a powerful cartridge. The .22 LR High Velocity (not Hyper Velocity) cartridge loaded with 36-37 grain hollow point bullets is just about perfect for the purpose of harvesting such game. And .22 LR ammunition is so compact that a 50 round box takes up little more space than a single 12 gauge shotgun shell or three .410 shot shells or center fire rifle cartridges. Clearly, for survival purposes, a takedown rifle with a barrel no longer than 21" will be advantageous. It is simply easier to pack. And space is likely to be at a premium on any wilderness expedition. The survival rifle may be scoped, but iron sights should be provided. There are at least four widely distributed (in the U.S.) .22 rifles that meet these requirements. There is a pair of well known, classic takedown hunting rifles that meet the size requirement. These are the Grade I Browning Semi-Auto .22 (SA-22), and the takedown version of the single shot Stevens Favorite Model 30 falling block rifle, and then there are a couple of purpose designed survival rifles, both autoloaders, that are widely available. These are the Marlin Model 70PSS Papoose and Henry U.S. Survival Rifle. If you are purchasing a rifle solely for emergency survival use, one of the latter is the obvious way to go. If you also want to use your survival rifle as a plinker and small game rifle for recreational shooting, one of the more traditional models would probably be a better choice.
Beo,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf65
Hmmmm...Ok.
Realize I didnt say 22 Long Rifle. i said 22 Hornet
Here's the difference in muzzle velocity:
22LR Super-Max (Quite a hot 22 Round) - 1750FPS
22 Hornet Hornady V-Max 35 grain- 3100FPS
223 Remington 55 grain boat tail HP - 3250 FPS
22-250 Federal 55 Grain Boat Tail HP - 3850 FPS
And yes, it was a head shot on an animal standing still.
The round entered the base of the skull and turned its brain to jelly
Don't underestimate the 22 Hornet
BatCat
I'm not saying you didn't please don't get me wrong in that, I didn't mean it like that. I'm sure you did, but I always thought a Caribou was a tough animal, if you took it with whatever kind of 22 it ain't that tough of an animal. ANd trust e I know my weapons firearms in particular, the .22 Hornet is a low-end varmint and predator centerfire rifle cartridge. It is considerably more powerful than the .22 WMR and the .17 HMR, achieving higher velocity with a bullet twice the weight. The Hornet also differs very significantly from these in that it is not a rimfire round but a centrefire one. This makes it handloadable and reloadable, and thus much more versatile. It is the smallest commercially available .22 caliber centerfire round, although Remington makes .17 caliber centerfire rounds. The .22 Hornet fills the gap between such popular varmint/predator cartridges as the .22 WMR and the .223 Remington. In regards to muzzle velocity, muzzle energy and noise, it is well suited to varmint and predator control in relatively built-up areas. The Hornet's virtual absence of recoil has made it even quite popular among deer hunters in some areas, although it is generally regarded as very underpowered for deer unless bullet placement is absolutely precise. Many jurisdictions such as the UK and most states in the USA currently prohibit the Hornet for use on deer. The .22 Hornet is also known as 5.6x35R mm. So it had to be head shot and hunting with it is pretty restricted in the U.S.of A.
I have a Ruger 10-22 as a survival rifle. I did get a break down stock for it so I could stow in my pack but I kept the original stock for it. I don't know why anyone would want to take down anything other than small game IN A SURVIVAL SITUATION. What are you going to do with all the extra? The .223 isn't so big that I can't take a rabbit or raccoon but I'll stick with 22 longs. Someone above spoke about the virtues of weight on the .22 and you can sure carry a lot of ammo. As for encountering 2 legged varmits, I have a sidearm as well. But I'll guarantee if someone's shooting you're not going to stand around and ask what caliber it is. You're going to find someplace to hide even if it is a lowly .22.
Someone care to explain why you would want a large caliber weapon for survival? Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't want to take a deer down and leave a bunch of meat when I can keep myself alive on smaller game.
Here is an excerpt from my personal defense page:
There are several excellent choices in .22LR weapons. Here are some we like:
* Ruger 10-22
Weighing in at 5 pounds, the Ruger 10-22 tops our list of survival rifles. It is a semi automatic equipped with a 10 shot rotary clip. There are a multitude of after market accessories for this rifle.
* Henry/Armalite AR7
Another semi automatic, the AR7 weighs in at just 2 1/2 pounds. Both the barrel and the receiver can be removed and stored inside the stock making this a very compact weapon at just 21" long. The AR7 also comes with an 8 round clip.
* Marlin Papoose
Like the AR7, The Papoose's barrel can be removed and stored in the flotation case. The Papoose weighs in at 4 pounds and has a seven round clip.
* Springfield M6 Scout
This is a true survival rifle having been designed for downed Air Force pilots. It has a .22LR barrel and a .410 shotgun barrel in over/under design. It is extremely rugged but only comes in a single shot for each barrel. Four .410 shells and fifteen .22 cartridges can be stored inside the stock. The barrel can also be removed from the M6 to make it a more compact weapon. It can be ordered in .22 hornet and .22 magnum instead of the .22LR, if you wish.
All great weapons for Survival Rick and like the last 3 the best, that Henry and Scout are great weapons I used to have them myself until I went flinter, now I'm selling my other firearms but keeping the H&K USP for my wife and home protection. I have also seen the 410 shotgun used as a survival weapon and the owner had cut down the barrel (illegal in all states, not sure of Texas they have some great laws there) for a more compact weapon, although I did like the way he did it and told him as he was arrested. In the defense of us gun owners and survivalist types and hunters he used it in the city for pigeon and rat killing and home protection.
Well......for home defense....Another excerpt:
The Lupara is a short barreled side by side (SXS), 12 or 16 ga, and usually open choked. Most are hammer guns. You will have to look long and hard to find a true Lupara not equipped with a sling. The term Lupara is Italian and literally means "wolf shot" and it has been used in Sicily for generations to protect flocks of sheep. You might also remember them as the instrument of choice in the movie The Godfather. We are not talking about the construction of an illegal weapon. A Lupara can be made to conform to ATF guidelines and current laws regarding barrel and overall length.
You will be hard pressed, however, to find a better home defense weapon than the Lupara. It is light, manueverable and if the sound of two rounds of buckshot passing by an intruder doesn't intimidate him, a SXS can be reloaded very quickly.
Scattergun the house, naw I'm too lazy to fix the holes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf65
No offense taken Beowulf
Once again, dont underestimate it. My neighbors son went deer hunting this year with the round (Texas allows any centerfire round, as do alot of states) and he took a doe that field dressed out at 137 pounds. He took it at 70 yards and put the bullet right in the engine room. He said the deer did run for about 50 yards, but fell after that.
Hard to argue with performance.
Caribou are pretty tough creatures, and I may have been just lucky. But it did work and it kept me fed for a matter of weeks.
BatCat
I agree with most of these guys, with a properly aimed shot, I have taken down a deer with a .22 cal rimfire. A .223 cal is a good cal. and I have not personally owned the gun you are talking about. But for a survival situation I would think you would not want to big of a cal. as some might suggest due to the extra weight of ammo and weapon itself.
Hey Rebel if you are looking for a good .308, and have the cash for it, the Springfield M1a scout is a very good choice. I carried one for years overseas, when the Springfield SOCOM came out our unit picked up 3 of them. I played around with it for a bit, but still prefered the scout. Just a suggestion......
If I die and go to Heaven that gun will be waiting for me. Saweeet.
Which gun Rick?
The M1A Scout