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"It wasn’t my .44 you see me holding that I pulled out, But my newly acquired can of UDAP, I sprayed the bear when he was no more than 5 feet from us,..."
" I carry a handgun when regulations allow it. In this case, I had made the decision to use your product first if I needed it. I am a fair shot with a pistol but under that kind of pressure and with an animal moving that fast, it would have been sheer luck to stop her with a bullet."
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Al Klkak once said - hitting a charging bear with a shot/shots from a handgun to kill it is about like hitting a baseball coming at you at 30 miles per hour. I will take my bear defense advice from those that have experience and leave the romantic notions and bravado to others.
I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about. You have a much better chance with bear spray. Bear spray will most likely save your butt, a gun will most likely get you mauled really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightShade
Even when someone who took some manly shots at a provoked bear ends up as meat, it's sadly always the bears in the end who have to pay the price for people's ignorance, disrespect and macho-ness. That's the part that ticks me off.
With all do respect, I think you completly misunderstand my point....I was trying to counter the arguement that .45 acp with full metal jackets is not a great choice for bear protection.... I've NEVER said ANYTHING against or even about bear spray..... But if you were going to use a gun, in my opinion a .45 just won't do the trick...I was saying that even if you do shoot it a bunch of times it will charge thru and maul you... I didn't want some poor kid getting mauled because he tried to protect himself with a .45...I was talking from my experience..I've never used Bear spray so I wasn't gonna comment on that.. I've relied on high powered rifles and big bore modern black powder rifles when things went bad... I do have experience with bears.. granted Black Bears NOT Grizzlies... I've encountered Bears countless times while hiking and hunting..I NEVER carry a gun into the woods unless I'm hunting... there's no "machoness" here, I am not afraid of Bears... they are one of the least of my worries in the bush... if you treat them with respect and give them their distance most of the time they will leave you alone.. at least in the areas I go .Every single time but twice the bears high tailed it out of there as soon as they saw me.... the other two times, it was a little different... Luckily both times I was armed... Though I never had to shoot a Bear out of self defense.. That would be my ultimate last resort...Quote:
Originally Posted by wildWoman
The first time I was hunting deer in Primitive firearms season.... as I was on my way out of the woods to go meet up with my dad for lunch, and then head out to a different hunting area, a decent sized black bear came out of the woods into the clearing I was in, about 50 yrds from me... We played a game of him stalking then charging me... me yelling loud and scaring him back , over and over for about 3/4 mile till I got back to my truck... I was prepared to fire if I had to... but really didn't want to unless it became apparent he was coming for blood....(only got 1 50 caliber 280 grain ballistic tipped round in that gun..then it woulda been a knife/claw fight... didn't want that!!!)
The second time was a similar situation with a much bigger bear.. who was a lot more aggressive it seemed... but it was rifle season and I had a browning Abolt 30-06 loaded with 250 grain super shock tip hornady's... again I was deer hunting... I was ALOT further into the bush... I put a round in a tree next to him at 50 yrds (on purpose) and chambered another if he was to come closer...but as soon as I pulled the trigger he took off in the opposite direction...
I'm not saying Bear Spray is no good... in fact after reading these posts I think I'm gonna pick me some up.... I was just saying that relying on a .45 acp "at close range".. in my opinion is not effective bear control... From MY EXPERIENCE a high powered rifle was much more effective and while out hunting I have seen with my eyes a bear drop INSTANTLY when it charged a hunter.
sorry if i got a little :offtopic: ......
I didn't want to comment on bear spray simply because I wouldn't give someone else advice about something I read somewhere.... You guys seem to have first hand knowledge it works so I'll give it a try....
sorry for the misunderstanding..and the long post :o
We've got a word up where I'm from for 250 pound black bears.....cub.Quote:
Originally Posted by glockcop
NightShade, Old, Old Sourdough saying: "Man who get in pissing contest with another man get foot wet, Man who get in pissing contest with woman will wish he was sprayed by Wolverine".
Now THAT sounds like boots in the field experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sourdough
Hi Nightshade,
I greatly appreciate your clarification, especially since I went right for your jugluar ;-) Bears and gun "protection" unfortunately tend to have that effect on me. So thanks for your post :-)
We had a somewhat enlightening discussion about the comparative merits of bear spray and rifles a while back, with some interesting statistics: http://wilderness-survival.net/forum...ear+spray+guns
Not for your benefit Nightshade, since you seem to have a good understanding of bears already, but for others tempted towards gun-toting for protection:
Based on my personal experience and that of my friends and acquaintances up here, it really takes some effort to get yourself mauled.
A bear, like any other creature, talks to people during an encounter/sighting. It is of course limited to its own vocabulary, largely body language and some sounds. It picks up on exactly these two things when encountering a person. So by learning "bear" and behaving accordingly, bear encounters can usually be defused. Most of the time, there is actually nothing to defuse.
Generally, bears and other large predators are seen through the lens of fear by people, which then leads to packing around firearms and shooting the animal even though it may have just been curious or wanting the person to move out of the way. When a person is ignorant and scared of an animal, the person feels the animal means harm even when it doesn't.
Once a bear is shot, you've put it on the spot and there is a very good chance it will want to protect itself from further injury - that's when you'll likely get mauled.
When you are already scared and firing at a bear, chances are slim that you'll kill the bear immediately. They have a very slow heart rate and can go on for quite a while after having been shot.
With the bear spray, you are not injuring the bear.
That means he has little reason to hurt you and most likely won't because it is in the bear's best interest to stay uninjured himself, in order to feed and fatten up for winter and not fall prey to a larger bear or human. Most animals avoid risk of injury to themselves and solve a lot of conflict through posturing.
The bear spray temporarily disorients the bear. He'll still not be a happy camper and you should get out of the area after spraying a bear but usually, you'll both live to tell the tale unscathed.
I used to be scared of bears myself and found it rather sad and stuid, so I worked on getting over the fear by learning more about bears and spending more time exposing myself to them. An individual bear who's grumpy and having a bad day will still scare me but now I can tell between one like that and a regular bear.
The only time and reason we carry firearms in the woods here is when we go hunting. Otherwise, we always carry bear spray. I've walked into sows with cubs, a sow with cubs at a fresh kill, had a bear sniff 2" next to my head while trussed up in my sleeping bag inside the tent, had a bear push in the window of a cabin, take a door of its hinges etc etc and none of this was a reason to shoot at the bear.
Behaving according to the situation, the bears so far were easily scared off by shouting or firing a rifle into the air when they made a nuisance of themselves (with the window and the door). On the other occasions, calling back the dogs immediately, talking calmly to the bear and walking slowly away while hollering every now and then to broadcast that I was leaving the area worked fine.
And then there's the rest of the times, which is by far the majority, when the bear and I just look at each other for a while and then one of us moves away first.
WildWoman,...... Now don't bite my head off but you are wrong abot the only time to carry a firearm into the woods. A pack a feral dogs doesn't react like a bear and I don't know if you have enough spray in one of those containers to take on a whole pack of dogs. The other thing is How does this spray affect big cats (mountain Lion)? We've got lots of those around here as of late and they are moving down into the edges of the city.
I guess I outed my temper now and robbed you all of your illusions *sigh*
Good point Sarky. I was speaking only about bears here. We don't have feral dogs here, so I don't know what the best defense would be there. Bear spray is just a more powerful version of the pepper spray available against dogs, so it might work quite well, but then that would depend on factors like how many dogs would be going for you. I have no clue.
As far as cougars go - I used to live on Vancouver Island where there are quite a few. Usually, they don't see adults as prey but may go for small children and little dogs. So personally, I wouldn't bring a firearm for cougars. Bear spray may work on them, too, but I don't know. It would still be the only thing I'd bring.
I'm with you, man. There is always a reason to be armed in the wilderness. Two legged predators are out there too. They also tend to travel in packs nowadays. Not to mention tons of different wildlife with teeth bigger than yours. I know somebody is gonna say, "Where I live there is no one around for 60 miles". Well you don't know that for sure and the two legged predators know that there is PROBABLY no body else around for 60 miles too. That is all the more reason for the bad guys to "roll" your a$$ and leave you for dead. Help will also be far away so ya better be able to protect yourself. The police are gonna be a while. Not to mention THE :alien:'s out there. Just joking. But in all seriousness being armed in the wilderness is just good sense. If someone does not want to carry a weapon in the woods that is their business but don't downplay the importance and say, "It isn't necessary around here". If that kind of person will just take their head out of the sand, they may just see that there is still danger in the wilderness. PERIOD! This relatively new concept that "There is nothing to worry about in the wilderness so I don't carry a weapon out there" would be totally foreign to the mountain men and pioneers who lived in areas that are very similar to the areas some people live in today. They would probably smack you with their flinlock to knock some sense into you. Sarky, men like you and I will most likely not ever find ourselves on the menue of predators for that very reason. We go armed. I have no sand in my hair because I keep my head out of it. Be safe brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by SARKY
P.S. Feral dogs like a little pepper spray spice with their meat (humans). That is all it's good for with k-9's.
And what are you gonna do when the zombies come? Always have a gun...oh, and a cricket bat just in case.
Cricket bat , Huh? I liked "Shaun Of The Dead" too. Very funny movie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Well said glockcop. :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by glockcop
1.) I support your right to not carry.Quote:
Originally Posted by sh4d0wm4573ri7
2.) I would add that your "usually against the law" generalization is too broad. It depends on where you are, and if you have a CCW permit.
3.) Regarding "is just really not needed". My opinion is that it is always a good idea to have a last line of defense...a firearm.
Maybe part of the reason why the mountain men became extinct...that or their biscuits...to me it seems largely an issue of boys and their toys.Quote:
Originally Posted by glockcop
Sorry to say, but the people who run into trouble up here are usually tourists from down south (drown in underestimated lakes, get lost and get hypothermia) or the local rednecks who are too stupid to carry survival gear with them on their ATVs or skidoos and who are too out of shape and know too little to get their butts back home once their machine goes on strike. A gun would help neither, other than putting themselves out of misery a bit earlier maybe.
It may well be different down where you live and do your surviving.
My reputation serves me well where I live, rest assured. It already has. Not to mention the dogs. I don't need to arm myself.
wildWoman, I admire and applaud your restraint, and agree that these do not sound like reasons to shoot. I'm glad that you feel you do not need to carry, but I always do, and that is my (and others) right. I treat any animal confrontation similar to a human confrontation. A large man in my face threatening me is not going to result in Defensive Gun Use. I may have my hand on my weapon, but that doesn't mean I'll begin shooting. I'm going to be backing away, or making my exit. Only when it is clear that my life, or my families well being is in grave danger will I begin my deadly response.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildWoman
I'm not arguing that it's not people's right to arm themselves.
I am just making the point that in confrontations with bears, people are getting mauled a lot more often when they shoot at the bear. That's not treehugger fiction, that's proven fact. And that with bears, bear spray will serve people better. It's their choice what do in the end, the only thing I can do is provide what information I have on the topic.
I really don't care if somebody gets mauled because of their own stupidity, I just find it a shame that the bear always gets tracked down and killed even when a person's stupidity caused the attack. That's all.
KX250, thanks for the backup, partner. Wildwoman, I did not mention anyones name in my post agreeing with Sarky; but since you went there here goes: Sounds a whole lot like the shoe fitting though, doesn't it? I could care less that you carry your can of cayenne pepper rather than a gun. I just don't think that you are wise for it. Strictly my opinion. It's your descision. The combination of the two is unarguably the prudent choice. You can taste like spicey chicken all day long and I'll carry a BIG GUN in bear country. You think you have it all figured out with your ,"Largely an issue of boys and their toys" theory. Tools and toys often get blurred together but not this time. Men are intelligent enough to invent and carry firearms because a need exists for those tools. A need that some of the unenlightened have not realized or will not admit. Those same unelightened persons often persecute and critisize those that have been wisely and rightfully armed while they proudly display their halo up above the barbarians. Also it is evident from your last post that you believe that a "stupid" persons life is less important than a friggin bear's since you oppose the killing of a mauler. Hope ya grow out of that. Also those maulings you sight may be "stupid" people letting a bear get too close because they have such a "grasp" of the animal's behavior. Animal mind readers. What is next? If I'm sleeping and a bear comes sniffing on my head, I am intelligent enough to reason that the bear may be sniffing his meal. Since bears can't talk and I nor anyone else is an animal mind reader, I will defend myself with swift authority. I'm also sure that all the bears in your area have gotten word of your "reputation" that has served you so well where you live. They will just ignore your presents even over hunger pains for fear of smelling like crab boil. Tell your trees good night and give them a big hug/kiss for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildWoman