Group Survival 101.

I expect Mad Max to roll by this forum any minute now....

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Originally Posted by volwest

My plans ?

You mean our plans...i thought i was pretty clear on my position.
But i am listening.

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I wasn’t exactly referring to rather or not we should go with them. I was wondering more about what do we do next.
But I think some people are still wondering if we should go or not.
I don’t know what all the advantages and disadvantages about going to the lake are and obviously its impossible to know all that could happen. Maybe we should talk about why we think we should or shouldn’t go.

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Originally Posted by wareagle69

first off to owl girl, even in combat situations we have support units ppl who can feed us, which you have already shown me an aptitude for wild edibles and also as a healer so rest easy youngster that we will support you and protect you.

rim, for some reason you always seem to ruffle my feathers don't know why yet, but contrary to your post you would not be able to observe our base camp w/o being detected yourself, i am not saying this out of ego i am saying this out of fact, as it was my job for six years.

as for fvr you are always welcome at my fire, i will need to rely on your wisdom at council.

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Thanks wareagle

I cant keep up with all these posts lol

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Originally Posted by FVR

Here is the story.

RiM is sitting outside our camp for 30 plus minutes deciding if he wants to come in.

He sees Sarge, Owl Girl, Nell, does not see Trax or any hunters. He sees me back off cutting wood.

He does not see WE who while out on patrol, heard vehicles. He rendezvous with Lumpy (two Rangers). Lumpy is working his way back from whence RiM came. WE has his cross hairs on RiM.

RiM makes his move. He is no dummy, he holsters his pistol, slings his rifle. But, the pistol thong is not on, and he carries his rifle muzzle down, on back, easy to pull around and fire. WE picks this up.

WE has been radioing VW. VW is aware that RiM us coming in. He shouts, Hello the camp. As any woodsman knows, if you don't, you get shot. Even in the 21'st century.

First person to meet RiM is Sarge, with a pot of coffee and two cups. He gives RiM a hot cup of coffee, thus tieing up his one hand. VW is pissed, WE still has the crosshairs on RiM, but needs to re position for any other visitors. The woodcutter has dis., Rim has noticed this. WE can not get the woodcutter on the radio, WE is really mad, VW is getting their.

WE calls Lumpy, Lumpy throws his scope on the woodcutter, he's gone, well, he has a rifle pointed at RiM. He is located behind the woodpile. Lumpy radio's WE, WE radio's VW. VW's back is covered. WE knowing this fades off and re positions.

VW comes out and he and RiM speak. RiM has noticed that there are a few deer hanging, but no hunters. The woodcutter is gone. He asks VW, and is informed that the woodcutter has him in his crosshairs.

They talk.

What do they talk about? I don't know as my radio is dead.

RiM gets up and leaves. When he passes the perimeter, the woodcutter backs off and re positions on the other side of camp about 60 yards out. Why, because RiM knows the other position.

WE picks up RiM when he works his way back to the atv.

Where is Lumpy?


VW calls Sarge and the woodcutter to his shelter where he advises both of them of his concerns. WHY THE HELL WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE OUR FIRE!

Sarge and the woodcutter leave. Sarge spreads out the coals more, the woodcutter makes damn sure all the bark is off the wood and that it is dry, no green.

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There are many assumptions that sets me up to be removed form the group. (Never said I had a rifle, the radio would have been covered. I would not unholster the side arm unless something was going to die soon.)

ANYWAY


Hello to the camp is universal yes I would have yelled that. Good way to not get shot.

I guess I stepped on some egos by saying I observed your camp. I guess you guys were the best and never lost any exercises. I am not that big a man. I have, I am not the best but I am pretty well train in recon. Anyway. I don’t think I can offer anything else to this thread. At the start I was in the group, now it appears I am not. WE I am not sure why you do not like me.

This has not gone the way I thought it would I am sorry I posted this scenario. Oh ya two of us caught more then enough today. The other two have built a nice temp shelter and we have selected a sight for our permanent residence.

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:

Yes inventory… I was wondering about that. I was going to ask if I mist something. Hey do we have any animals with us like guard dogs or something?

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:

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Ok I will stick around. Our gear which I will detail tomorrow. (Much to do in the a.m.) Anyway it is well concealed and our permanent spot on high ground is taking shape nicely.

We all have some military background but that is not our primary concern. We have plans and will kill when needed. We would rather not but is an option that is at the top of the list. We do not own the lake but we do own our stuff and we are taking possession of the walking distance around our camp. Like I said we are here to survive and be as happy as possible. But do not confuse our kindness with weakness. I would think based on some posts most here will understand that statement.

Not sure how many know about this place. There is not a home within walking distance.

Also my brother in-law’s lab, Max, is not an attack dog but nothing gets past him. So he is our alarm… So form your group VW I see 3 that are starting to think about where I am headed…. Not trying to start a fight with you BTW,

RiM,

Just assumptions hoss. The rifle and sidearm is what I would have and the actions I typed would have been the actions I would have taken.

Of course your sidearm would be holstered, would it be snapped in?

I don't think you stepped on any ego's at all. But realize that you would not be the only one observing. This group has a few mil. men and that brings a whole new dynamic to the group.

Actually, it may bring problems in the future. Mil. and civilians act diff. in many situations. Call it training or exp.


So, what did you and VW talk of? He's still pissed about the fire and my radio, although, I had his six all the time.

I very much liked the scenario because it is very realistic.

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

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Originally Posted by owl_girl

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

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our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells

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Originally Posted by ryaninmichigan

our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells

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That could be a problem if your trying to keep a low profile.

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)

what are you guys doing????

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)

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Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:

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Originally Posted by survivorman.

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:

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Role-playing

thats what I thought. rpg huh? cool.

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Originally Posted by owl_girl

Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

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It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D

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Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

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Originally Posted by owl_girl

Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

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Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D

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I have a friend like that. I don’t know exactly where she stands on the killing part, but she knows some effective pressure points lol, and even though she’s little she has fought with the big boys especially if they were hurting a little kid or animal. She’s brave or stubborn either way she won’t back down. You would never expect her to do some of the thing she dos. She’s like that eagle taking down a deer, she’s the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a warrior. Yep she’s been in a few survival situations lol

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

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Originally Posted by wareagle69

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

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Where's Norm? Where's the knife?:D

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Originally Posted by wareagle69

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

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The lake I am on is 15 miles out. Are you talking about my lake with the RVs? It is not accessible from any road so I am surprised you thought you seen RVs. Maybe you are the one with the Shrooms. Your night patrol took you 15 miles out? Kind of a long way don’t you think? Maybe if you were not hiking 15 miles you might have seen SM coming in.

No formal military training, some training in kung fu and boxing. Approximately 40 years on and off of hunting, scouting, tracking and trapping experience. I am capable of being very stealthy in wooded and grassland areas. I'll be bringing two scoped hunting rifles, a .243 and a 30.06, both bolt action repeaters w/ 4shot magazines. I can make a green apple sitting against green tree bark into apple sauce @ 100 yards without the scope, I can do more damage than that at greater distances with.

I'll have one rifle with me at all times, one in camp with whoever's on the job while I'm out or sleeping knowing where the second rifle is if they need it. I will also be carrying a small hatchet and a 5" skinning knife which I keep razor sharp.

I can also adapt my sleep cycles to meet the necessity of the job, but yes, if we have enough people the guard duty should be broken up into smaller shifts. It makes for more alert guards. People should also learn to patrol randomly, rather than on a set patrol, if they don't know that already. It makes it more difficult for anyone who might be an unfriendly to figure out how to gain access to our camp.(Indian trick!) I agree with volwest that all life matters, not just human, and when it comes to taking any life...it is something I take very seriously, but if it's the job that needs to be done, I will not hesitate. I'm not looking for trouble with anyone (my comment about pre-emptive strikes still stands, if it's what you have to do....do it)

If I'm scouting an area for game, I'm going to have a good idea of all the water sources in the area, creeks lead to lakes, tree lines drop off on the horizon at lakes,etc. Even if I haven't made it to the lake yet, I know where it is. Any information I pick up while hunting/scouting is reported to VW, WE, FVR et al upon my return. If Sarge's coffee keeps me awake, I'll give FVR a hand with the wood before I knock off

Kind of got away from the inventory thing:

1 small tent w/tarp-style tent fly, 4 ppl could squeeze into
a big, down sleeping bag
coffee pot and cup and melamine dishes for two ppl (kit came that way)
1 lb each, coffee and sugar
2 boxes of 500 wooden matches
400 rounds for each rifle
bino's
one extra change clothes, outdoor gear, fleece jacket, not camouflage
waterproof boots
aforementioned firearms, knife, hatchet
knife sharpener
no food...that's it, left in a hurry

LMAO at VW's sleeping pills, "Lullabye and goodnight and where are your friends hiding?...."

Activated charcoal, tea tree oil, other oil, bandages, salt, 2 blankets (alpaca wool), sleeping bag, a towel, cup, canteen, Katadyn Pocket Filter, water sanitizer tablets, small pot, cast-iron pan, magnesium flint, true flint & steel, lighter, magnifying glass, flashlight, batteries, pepper spray, fixed blade knife, folding knife, knife sharpener, finger nail clipper, multi tool with spoon & fork, whistle, pen & paper, a couple books on natural resources, hand sanitizer, soap, toilet paper, and some personal hygiene produces

Clothing: socks, hat, a really good jacket, sweater, 3 shirts, 4 sets of pants, snow pants, winter boots, gloves, hiking boots

It seems the animal thing is of interest and volwest did ask so…I value all life and I have a soft spot for animals, I would never hurt an animal for no reason, but if I had to choose between an animal and a human I’d choose the human over the animal, but I wouldn’t choose a human life over a human life, and I know you probably find me hypocritical but I’m honest.

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Originally Posted by volwest

-sleeping pills (50...RIM should start feeling it by now with Sarge's coffee...lol)

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I assume this was a joke.

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Originally Posted by ryaninmichigan

I assume this was a joke.

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but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???

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Originally Posted by trax

but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

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I don't drink coffee:D

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Originally Posted by trax

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???

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Sure I’ll help

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Originally Posted by owl_girl

Sure I’ll help

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Thanks owl_girl!

I could use a clearer picture of how many people we're talking about in our group. Can we do some kind of roll call here? It matters in relation to food provision, so it matters first and foremost to the hunters and gatherers. We can also look at best disbursement practices once all of the edibles have been inventoried.

Basically, a couple of deer are a good start, but I need to drop a moose. If RiM et al are moving on, will we look at them as potential trading partners down the road? They seemed honorable and friendly in my humble opinion.

Does that mean you're not going to help me and owl_girl pack meat back to camp? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by volwest

It is a fact brought on by neurobiologists that there is no specific spot in the brain for "good" or "bad", for those notions or values depend on cultures and time...............

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Long enough Sarge ?

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Say yes! For the love of God, DO NOT ask for more details!! LOL!:D :D

volwest was there a specific point you were coming to? If there was could you sum it up in a way people with shorter attention spans can retain lol?

awww....I thought that long post kinda meant "birds of a feather flock together" then I thought..mmm....goose..mmm

I'm kidding, you know that right?

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Originally Posted by volwest

Of course...Hey want some coffee ?
(hehehe)

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sighting down rifle....eyes getting heavy, should pull trigger on deer...(yawn)....rifle seems...heavy....eyes drooping....should shoot deer...why does deer look like my right boot? (yawn)...shoot, then maybe a short nap....