[QUOTE=ryaninmichigan;5748]Thread title: "An Absolute Must Read!" Post 14. Although I may have you confused with someone else.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
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[QUOTE=ryaninmichigan;5748]Thread title: "An Absolute Must Read!" Post 14. Although I may have you confused with someone else.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Nope that was me forgot all about it. Anyway thanx for choosing me to be on your team.
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There always has to be an Alpha Dog. Nothing worse than sitting down and having to debate, discuss, and argue about every decision.
Sometimes you have to take the hill, because you have to take the hill.
But then I'm a military man. If the wood needs to get cut, cut the freak'n wood, don't argue about who is going to do it, just get the job done.
Ahh, but what do I know, I just get the job done.
Me thinkum you braves sayin' "Too many chiefs, not enough injuns?" So white man have solution? How we pick chief from this tribe?:confused:
The dynamics of the tribe will determine the leader.
If you have a bunch of greenhorns, the leader will be the one who has the most knowledge. Knowledge is power.
If you have a bunch of military pers., the leader will be the one with the most respect. Respect is earned, not given. Most, respected leaders were good followers, they knew when to push, when to stay, and when to take a step back.
Sarge, the leader of your group will be Volwest, his second in command will be wareagle. The leader will train his replacement, his second in command.
The leader will eventually fullfill his destiny, he should gladly back off and let his second in command take the reins. The former leader at that point will be the wiseman, a confidant, the one that may not have the final say, but has the wisdom to input what the leader may miss.
I'm just the smartass that cuts the wood.
How many posts did it take to come up with a name for the leader? I'll vote for VW if you can promise me he'll keep the verbage down.:D Wareagle, ah yes! I'll probably call him "Snoring Moose" though.:D I can cook, gather wood, use an axe, sing, workin' on playin' my harp, (Not as good as Les, though) hope ya all like "Blues"; and the most important thing, take direction/orders! Sir, yes sir!:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
Sarge,
You will only need to cook.
You cook good rabbit, pilgrim.
Just keep VW out of my kitchen area; if he starts talkin' about having a relationship with the food........:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
Nobody mess' with the grumpy cook.
Just make sure that you keep one cup of coffee hot. Good leaders let the troops eat first. It's always nice to have a hot cup of coffee.
The easy part is done. You have the leader, the second in command, and the cook.
Place your remaining group members.
Owl-Girl
Foggy
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
Trax
Marscroft
You'll have to teach me about coffee, I'm a tea drinker. Got this right out of a survival book, BTW, "Tea quenches thirst, Coffee agravates it. I always let everyone else eat first, that way if the foods bad I'll know!:D Also, what about Owl Girl, she's got some savy, any female who wants to study up on knife steel...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
Now remember, if RiM and his 5 family members, (12 total) don't like what's happening. They can overthrow your group, or take all your provisions and set off and start their own group.
That's why we got VW & WE! VW can keep them psyched out and Wareagle will sic "Norm" on them if they get outta hand.:rolleyes: Seriously though, the thing is that in any survival situation anybody can do what you just said, if they have the numbers. The alternative may be leaving someone to die, and in my opinion that's not an option unless the situation warrants it, and then you'd better be 100% sure!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
What you will find out is that your "group" will have sub groups. VW an WE won't have to win over the whole RiM clan. but rather win over the leader of that group.
With the creation of the RiM group, the other members will feel alienated, thus forming their own group.
In essence, VW will have a major headache and WE will have to take action.
WE will be pursued by both "sub groups" to influence VW for their own good.
At that point, WE's loyalty will surface.
We can only speculate what would happen. WE being a mil. man, will be in the most demanding position.
And I will be chopping wood.
"We have graves to dig."
Your biggest problem will be the fact I own half the group form the get go. Not that I am that type of person, VW does way too much pondering to be my leader. If we need to cut wood we need to cut would not discover why we desire to have fire.
FVR is right sub groups will form and the leaders of these groups will collectively lead the whole group. You will have hunters, gathers, and camp keepers. There will be these sub group leaders and within the sub groups the pecking order will be formed naturally.
The key to survival is the diversity of the group and the willingness to put worth one effort in exchange for another. And to see the value of the other effort. I value the Gathers leaks and fire wood, while he values my venison and hides. WE both value the Cook and makers of shelter while we were gone…
We should start a thread based on a few assumptions Play each post as actions we are taking and see where the chips fall. Maybe we will all end up killing each other maybe we will end being the first trading post in the after TSHTF.
volwest doesn't want to be leader? YOu might want to check with both he and wareagle before assigning all your other positions, and Sarge--I make the best campfire coffee (not my vote on that...I've been told) so I'll show you that and then I'm outta the kitchen, never P### off the cook!
I asked that question based on how volwest described his own role in a group survival scenario. And I see that we already have a "challenge" to that position. Volwest didnt' seem like it was a role he wanted to take on.
My personal viewpoint, and I'm not a military man, but still am very much in agreement with FVR, get it done. Still, I wouldn't see myself in the position of leader either, there are certain tasks that I know I would excel at and I would start on those, conversely if a group leader says "not today man, we need you to give FVR a hand splitting wood or Sarge a hand in the kitchen" then I'm ok with that.
By virtue of the situation as we've visualized it to date too, group members need to have an awareness and respect for each other's positions. For instance, if it is RiM's and my job to hunt game for a group, then other group members need to appreciate that we're going to be keeping different hours. Flip side of the coin is, if FVR is hauling firewood into camp, he doesn't need someone *****ing "why aren't you out there gutting an elk with trax?" etc. You guys get the point, no need in my belaboring it.
Personally, my first choice for leader would be between FVR and Wareagle. If they take first and second post, with either of them in either order, I'm cool with it. The other consideration that every good leader is aware of is recognizing the expertise of the group members at their assigned tasks. So....Nell and owl-girl are both pretty good at finding wild foods, medicines etc, the group leader gets them to look, but doesn't say where to look or how or what to look for, that's their expertise. Tell me you need meat, don't try telling me how to get it, cuz I'll just smile and nod and do what I was going to do in the first place.
Just two cents worth.
Of course VW might decline leadership...up front! With his knowledge of psycology he could covertly lead from the flanks, without others being aware of it. His strength would be in identifying any potential problems within the group and suggestions on how to handle them. I think it looks more like a team, but maybe a team "captain" is also needed. Whoever is picked will have to be voted in unanimously as that would cause fewer divisions. And Trax, you could make coffee anytime pard, and stick around jawin' too! I was mostly joking about people in the way. There is a time for people to stand back, but not always. Finally, if there's a "common foe" outside the group, that can oft-times pull the people inside tighter together.
You mean you want to role play it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ryaninmichigan
I think that governance in a small group can rely heavily on "council", where a leader has opportunity to gain from any and all member's expertise. Immediate decisions, when required, are up to that leader. Disciplinary measures and "motivation" are also up to that leader. There's a time for both, council based decisions and unilateral decisions. Unanimous agreement is rare, but consensus can be garnered in those situations (vis: I don't agree with Sarge's coffee making, but for the sake of the group I agree to let him keep trying) A "foe" to the group is where volwest first suggested his own expertise. In a council setting he might suggest that he could utilize my skills, or WE's, or RiM's in dealing with those foes. The situation as I'm describing it is much like the way most North American native groups functioned back in the day.
Sarge just re-identified something that volwest mentioned earlier. His own penchant for being one who distances himself from the rest of the group because of the task that he has taken responsibility for, personally, I tend to be much the same way, that's the reason why I mentioned what I did earlier. Hunting is a good example, I'm going to be where my prey is when it's there, that may require me to be catching some sleep while others are working or hanging out around Sarge's kitchen looking for a bite to eat during "off" hours. The group...in council...finds agreement in that, the leader makes allowances for it to happen.
Of course, I'm babbling for nothing in a lot of this because I don't have the right to speak for volwest and he's definitely not someone I want to make assumptions for:rolleyes: The same goes for the FVR, WE, Nell, owl_girl and the rest. I'm just trying to throw in some "how about this..." scenarios
I just had a thought. Actually two, one being that it's great that I'm supposed to be working and I'm sitting here typing to myself because the regulars aren't in that much during the morning.
The second one being....the size of the group and individual expertise. What I'm suggesting here is, kind of like the old days on the ball field. It was mentioning to lumpy that "if yer in yer in" that made me think of it. One common form of "group governance"....more than one group. I think we've got plenty of survival expertise among a lot of people here and plenty of mil. experience too, which is a great thing. We've had several people offer some of their expertise on survival without weighing in on our group survival thread. So we could have people choosing what leader they would rather follow, or what team mate they would rather work with, or leaders requesting someone based on the need of that group. Hope I'm not making everything too confusing..:eek:
So SHTF, It is mid August and we are not going back to town for quite some time. We head for the big northern woods anywhere USA. Me and my clan are hauling our gear through the woods on our fourwheelers. Heading to a lake about 30 miles off the road We are about 15 miles out having just killed 6 rabbits we are looking for suitable camp site to make dinner when we notice smoke a mile or so away.
It is
Vol-West
Owl-Girl
Foggy
Trax
Wareagle 69
Marscroft
Having never met them we are reluctant move in. so we send in a single guy armed with a side arm, and a two way radio, nothing else to suggest we have anything of value. It’s me (I am the only dumb one.) Everyone else hangs back.
We meet and we determine for now that everyone is cool. You are out there about 2 days ahead of us. You invite us into your camp. It is 3pm gets dark at 10. I radio the guys. (I am making this easier in that somehow we are not with our families)
SOME background on us.
All of us are accomplished woodsmen who have been hunting, fishing, and trapping, since childhood. The oldest is 43 the youngest is 33. One is very creative when it comes to fabrication and fixing things, 2 are carpenters, and the last is well versed in many trades. I am leaving other info out about background and what we have with us until it is asked of me or needed.
Oh ya the last guys 10 to 12 we passed a day or two ago were not friendly.
Let’s discuss what happens next.
Just for clarity's sake..you left out Sarge, I'm assuming he's with our group and you just skipped him accidentally..yes? no?
How many are in your group?
I want to talk with you and your guys about the "unfriendlies" What direction did they seem to be moving? What kind of firepower did they have? Did they have an overall appearance of competence in the woods? I'm already prepared to trust your judgement on the third question, the first two aren't judgement based questions.
I also want to discuss what we can offer each other as a merged group. For one obvious reason, the unfriendlies have us outnumbered as separate groups, if push comes to shove.
Another obvious reason, six rabbits by themselves don't make much of a meal for a group, but make a good contribution to a larger group meal.
I think these last two posts could almost be a separate thread, or at least we can do a little more group definition before getting into this too much
Yes Sarge is there. I was kind of directing it has initial post.
There are 4 of us total. The “unfriendlys” were at the last road 10 miles behind where we ditched the trucks. They were looting a gas station. They seem mildly armed some shot guns A couple hunting rifles. I think an AK or some Chinese nock off. They saw us and all our gear for sure. We ditched the trucks in cover and hit the weeds before they caught up. They were pretty busy loading up potato chips and cigs.
We know this area pretty well. And as you can see we have a ton of stuff with us. We can get into the particulars later. We are making our way to the lake where we are going to wait it out. When we were younger we would catch the crap out of walleye and perch in it.
The rabbits, ya it was going to be enough for us. We have some canned food but when opportunity shows itself. Keep the cans shoot the rabbits. But I see you have some berries and other things How about some meat to go along with it?
I want the input of volwest and wareagle about the unfriendlies...I'm a big fan of pre-emptive strikes... and I probably want to discuss a long term, fortified group shelter with the tradespeople in your group. If we've been there two days, I'm pretty sure I'll have some meat and/or fish as well.
Our plan was to make our way to the lake. And build a permanent shelter. That area provides us with a lot of resources. And there is some high ground on the north side of the lake we were planning on building on. You all are welcome to pack up and come along. We could use some hands to get the cabin built. And with this many people we could easily build more then one before it get too cold. Here is a bit of info. I am one of the carpenters. Ask away. Also Trax you seam to be the groups mouth piece. Or we are the only ones bored right now.
No denying I'm mouthy, but I think it's cuz we're the only ones here right now. That's why I mentioned wanting some of the other folks input a while back. I don't think that group "pecking order" or whatever you want to call it has really been determined yet. I was just throwing in thoughts off the top of my head. What seems to be priority, kind of thing. If I don't do this, I have to log off and do real work, which involves directing the lives of people who are doing what they're doing for a paycheck. This is better, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryaninmichigan
How long are we expecting this disaster to last? Are we going to be out there through winter? I’m having fun reading but right now I’m doing what I would be doing in that scenario ….quietly observing
I've been making the assumption that this is something we should be doing some long term planning for, possibly months. I don't know why I was doing that, I just was....maybe that says something about me.
No one wants to say anything about the other thread I started on this? hmmmm.....
I've always tended to 'take up slack', which is to say I do the things that others don't want to do. I let people and their personalities work themselves out, and I don't participate in the inevitable politics of the group. As long as there is an established goal, and a plan, you can assign me anything, as long as the good of the group is served.
However, if everyone is trying to be the Alpha, and there is no goal and no plan due to the infighting, then you'd have to count me out - I'll take my chances alone.
A.) Where's law Enforcement? Townies looting gas stations implies TEOTWAWKI! How much coffee do we have? Trax is really hard to deal with in the morning until he gets that 1st cup into him.:rolleyes: The reason the question about the Townies is to ask if we shoot them 1st are we in deep Kim-Chee? In a survival situation you can hide out for awhile, but sooner or later somebody's gonna find you.
B.) Maybe the Townies were just stocking up? Where's VW, we can send him out to talk to them, find out where their heads are at, find out if their guns are loaded.:rolleyes:
C.) I would suggest holding off on any course of action until RiM's family gets to camp as they might have some intelligent input since Rim Said he was the "dumb" one;)
D.) What's the weather doing, and what season is it? E.) What's our camp like, are we hidden? RiM's group seemed to have stumbled right on us.
F.) How do we keep Norm from snoring and giving away our position? Maybe this could solve our "meat" problem for a bit, kill 2 birds with one round, as long as WE doesn't find out...:eek:
I don't think that's a concern, people seem ready to recognize other people's leadership for the most part, 'tis part ofwhy I brought up the piece about making sure the person wants the job first! But I do agree with your point, if that was what a group amounted to, I'd probably slip quietly out the "back door".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fog_Harbor
#1 How far did you drive before you ditched the trucks? How far from the unfriendlies?
#2 Did you notice the unfriendlies vehicles? Full size autos? 4 wheelers? Atvs?
#3 How much gas does your group have?
#4 That's a nice offer on the lake, we need to take a look as to ensure security.
#5 Sarge's group has women, yours does not. Agree right now that there will be no improper advances to the women in our group. If they want to take up with you, fine, if you force it, we will be digging graves. For you.
#6 We shake hands, all of us. This is the only honorable contract, we abide by it. If we have any disputes, they will not be poo poo'd.
#7 RiM, don't give me the BS that you are the dumbest, as of right now you are the rep. for your group.
#8 Let's have a cup of coffee, and tell us any of the latest news.
Oh, I'm only the woodcutter. VM, WE, here are my notes.
A. This is it, I have everything I could carry of value with me. I do not expect to go home ever again.
B. Sure he can head out and talk to them. Not me, they had guns and did not seem to care about what they are doing.
C. I radioed the guys they are at your camp with me.
D. It is mid August fall will be here in 6 weeks.
E. Can’t answer that one.
Nobody needs to go out and talk to these bozo's.
We will have two person, 3 hour sentry's until the final destination is secured.
All persons must stand sentry duty, hunters get first watch as you need to get up early and get us meat.
Anyone have a good pair of bino's?
Oh wait a minute, I'm the freak'n woodcutter. Sarge, here are my notes.
1. We had another ten miles till we dumped the trucks. Down an old logging road. They are pretty concealed but someone will find them at some pointQuote:
Originally Posted by FVR
2. 4 trucks all fourwheel drive anywhere from new to 10 ten years old.
3. the trucks still have some, we have around 50 gallons with us, including what’s in the four wheelers.
4. Cool look all you want. We will be pulling out in the morning.
5. We are honorable men who hold the women in our family very high. I have been know to intervene when I seen some red neck decide to slap his around in my sight. So deal. I will treat them as I would my sister and include all the protection that comes with.
6. I do what I say and I take a hand shack as contract.
7. I am not the dumbest, Just the dumbest to walk up on an unknown number of people alone. I watched for 30 minutes before I made my self known
8. I like mine strong. Let me tell you what we saw on the way in………..
well rim my lrrp knew you guys was a coming along time ago..
trax i agree with a council it is important to get the opinions of you seasoned members
in this scenario are we all familiar with our geography or were some on the road, need to know where each member stands on the familiarity of the area ie hunting fishing scouting wild edibles ect..
fvr i respect your wisdom, as we have chewed some of the same dirt so i will be looking to you for your help you can talk and split wood at the same time eh?