What if "WE" are ALL 100% WRONG in our preperations...????

I have never been an advocate of the "full dress rehearsal". I agree that practice makes perfect, however I like practicing the individual tasks to a level of competence . I have seen too many times where a group that has gone the "full dress rehearsal" route inadvertently assumes that the rehearsal would be the flow when stuff happens. And that causes indecision at awkward times. When we concentrated on task training it seemed easier to remember and apply skills. Now of course I am writing this from an urban perspective and from military experience.. If I was living in a country/wilderness setting, I am sure my approach would be different since opportunities for practice can or could be almost a daily occurance and virtually a way of life. Just my opinion

We practice bugging in, not on a regular basis, just whenever the hurricane strikes. Last time was Ivan. No power for a week. No ice available (had ice stored in the deep freeze). Day 3 saw National Guard giving one bag of ice, one case of water, one case of MREs if you had the time and gas to wait in line. Gas rationing in the 70s had shorter lines. 12vdc fan and window screens helped. Coal oil lamp to read by. Spare batteries for the teenagers walkman, game thingy, etc.
One of the biggest problems noted was lack of light in a windowless bathroom. Now I have updated to solar walklights outside. Easily removed and placed in the bathroom during power outages. Recharge during the day. Hopefully we won't drill again this year, but are prepared if necessary.

Here’s my thoughts on it. Who defines a fulfilling life? As the saying goes – beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so does it go to define ones own success. Hope – I admire the life you live. I don’t envy it, but admire the fact that you are doing the things that are fulfilling to you. The things that you want to accomplish while still here. By the same token, I admire the life that Rick is living. Again, it is his life therefore his to define. I often reflect on the things I’ve done. I’ve made decisions, or turns in my life that led me to where I am today. At the times of those decisions I thought many were good. I also thought that many were bad. Regardless, they are the choices that I made that define me today. The 20+ years I spent in the military were not arduous by many standards, yet the vast majority of personnel in the Navy were not qualified or capable of doing it. The profession that I have chosen today is certainly not what I consider difficult. I take great pleasure in what I do both professionally and personally. The activities that I participate in give me a balance in my life. Be it hiking in the woods, sailing on an open ocean, helping a customer with a difficult situation, volunteering at one of the local homeless shelters, serving on various committees or boards. I am where I am because of the choices I made. I have no regrets on those choices. Helping an elderly neighbor gives me as much pleasure as a long stroll in the forest. As far as doing and practicing or “boots in the field” as you talked about in your first post….I couldn’t agree with you more. Doing a job well takes patience and practice. Not sure if this is the sort of thing you are looking for, but my thoughts anyway.

One other point. When I was in charge of the local EMA and worked for the state EMA, I ran several "exercises" - table top rehearsals, dress rehearsals, and full blown field rehearsals. Trained "outsiders" would constantly notify us of a spectrum of developing "incidents" that we had to respond to during the course of the exercise.

I also directed responses to the real thing on numerous occassions.

That type of experience tends to make a permanent impression on you. The skills become second nature - an instinctive response, if you will. When you only have to worry about yourself, your family, and a few close friends, it's a lot easier than taking care of an entire community.

That attitude regarding training that was instilled into me early in my career was You had better train the way you are going to fight, because you will most assuredly fight the way you train. It's kind of the way I view training and practice still.

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Originally Posted by Rick

I wish some others would chime in. This is a good thread and a good subject. It deserves to have some fresh ideas injected.

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Hope I am not whipping a tried horse. But why can't people take an ice cold shower one day a week. Or eat nothing for 36 hours. or don't use bug dope one day. go without coffee or booze for a week. Anything to experience some level of hardship and discomfort. Or live with no door on the outhouse.:clap:

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Originally Posted by hopeak

Hope I am not whipping a tried horse. But why can't people take an ice cold shower one day a week. Or eat nothing for 36 hours. or don't use bug dope one day. go without coffee or booze for a week. Anything to experience some level of hardship and discomfort. Or live with no door on the outhouse.:clap:

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For me - because I have and know that I'll be just fine. I don't feel that it is something that I need to practice. Does leaving the bathroom door open count?

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Originally Posted by hopeak

Hope I am not whipping a tried horse.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...violent083.gif (Smiley added by Ken) But why can't people take an ice cold shower one day a week. Or eat nothing for 36 hours. or don't use bug dope one day. go without coffee or booze for a week. Anything to experience some level of hardship and discomfort. Or live with no door on the outhouse.:clap:

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[ X ] Cold Shower - during the summer :blushing:
[ X ] No Food 36 Hours
[ X ] No Bug Dope
[ X ] No Booze for a Week
[... ] No Coffee for a Week
[... ] No Outhouse Door
http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/ne...g/toilet-6.gif(No outhouse at all)

Life isn't a spectator sport, to me, this exercise is not about comfort/discomfort, its about self-denial and self-examination. We all know we can go a few days without food, and survive a cold shower or a night in the woods without shelter. We know this, because we may have done it previously or we've read about or watched people on television, that we view as weaker and dumber, do it. So, we say- "I've done it before, so I can do it again" or, we say "If that guy can do it, I can do it"

And, you are probably right- You can do it. You can get through it, you can survive.

But, what if you never have to. What if you just die in your sleep an old man, and never tested yourself, other than that one time back in college or while in the Army. Are the last 40 years of your life going to be spent, passively watching the television and reminescing about the first 40...or are you going to be active and create more stories.

The path of self-denial is an insighful path. Not only does it show you your strengths, and show you what you can do....more importantly it makes you confront your weaknesses and shows you want you cant do.

Plus its spiritual....it makes you feel alive! Its like skinning a knee, or having your first love break your heart. It makes you feel, it makes you think, it makes you live!

@ Jason - For you. That's your definition. But I think Crash's explanation is just as valid. We learn from each other's experiences and we can only do that when each of us have different experiences. The gal that spends her life as an ER doctor or the guy that spends his life volunteering to Boy Scouts both find their experience rewarding or they wouldn't do it.

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Originally Posted by Jason

But, what if you never have to. What if you just die in your sleep an old man, and never tested yourself, other than that one time back in college or while in the Army. Are the last 40 years of your life going to be spent, passively watching the television and reminescing about the first 40...or are you going to be active and create more stories.

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If I die an old man in my sleep, I'll consider myself extremely lucky. It could have been a car wreck at 30 or 20 or 17. And I won't be reminiscing about the previous 40 years. I seldom look backward. My vision is forward looking. My point is we don't all share the same vision or quest for self test. I don't need to put myself on the line to feel alive. I can quietly sit and watch my grandkids or birds or fish or putter in the garden and feel pretty good about my life. It's the little things that add value for me. Anyone can step out of an airplane but I'll NEVER understand why they do it.

That doesn't make your opinion or view any less valid, however.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Montana

gotcha, must have been getting well above freezing during the day. In my experience a freezer full of solidly frozen one pound blocks of meat don't need ice on them unless the outside temperature gets above 40 or so for a full day.
About the dog getting into your ice chest...tie a rope or a NRS strap around it to keep is sealed and keep the critters out

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Actually the temp stayed in the high 20's throughout the days and as for the ice chest...thats exactly what we did after the fact of course. What is strange is that our back yard was surrounded by a six foot privacy fence on two sides and a chain link fence on the other. I saw the dog who broke into our provisions leap the chain link fence like it was nothing.

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Originally Posted by rat31465

I saw the dog who broke into our provisions leap the chain link fence like it was nothing.

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Moose jump a 6' fence, with ease, and from a standing start. It is something to watch a 1/2 ton of moose gracefully leap so high.

you have a good point hopeak.

a couple days without my comfort foods and my gadgetry takes away some of the confidence that those things give.
without an alturnative,or replacement survival gets tough.
most of my equipment is just "luxury"items that provide comfort.(i mean the mosquito nets,tents,mre's,multi-tools)

primative survival techniques.(its provided for me by nature) is how i train myself.

i have friends that wear noeprene divers suits in the winter under thier clothes so even swimming in ice water they should be ok.
is that intelligent necessity?or comfort food overkill? you tell me!

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Originally Posted by erunkiswldrnssurvival

i have friends that wear noeprene divers suits in the winter under thier clothes so even swimming in ice water they should be ok.
is that intelligent necessity?or comfort food overkill? you tell me!

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I've had a bit of experience swimming in icy water. Never thought of a dry suit as overkill. It prevents things like, uhhh, cardiac arrest. I suspect that NOT wearing one would have killed me.

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Originally Posted by Pal334

I have never been an advocate of the "full dress rehearsal". I agree that practice makes perfect, however I like practicing the individual tasks to a level of competence . I have seen too many times where a group that has gone the "full dress rehearsal" route inadvertently assumes that the rehearsal would be the flow when stuff happens. And that causes indecision at awkward times. When we concentrated on task training it seemed easier to remember and apply skills. Now of course I am writing this from an urban perspective and from military experience.. If I was living in a country/wilderness setting, I am sure my approach would be different since opportunities for practice can or could be almost a daily occurance and virtually a way of life. Just my opinion

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I am not advocating people do "full dress rehearsals". I am advocating, first buy some survival stuff, and also study and learn. And, that one important segment of the learning/study/practice is regular experience of being miserable (Cold, wet, exhausted, and under pressure). I understand Ricks point, I just disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by hopeak

I am not advocating people do "full dress rehearsals". I am advocating, first buy some survival stuff, and also study and learn. And, that one important segment of the learning/study/practice is regular experience of being miserable (Cold, wet, exhausted, and under pressure). I understand Ricks point, I just disagree with it.

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Aaah,, one of the nice parts of our society, we can agree to disagree :) And if we are honest, walk away from the disagreement learning something inspite of our best efforts.

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Originally Posted by erunkiswldrnssurvival

i have friends that wear noeprene divers suits in the winter under thier clothes so even swimming in ice water they should be ok.
is that intelligent necessity?or comfort food overkill? you tell me!

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I think your missing my point see post # 56. Your lifestyle is part of what I am saying is necessary. People don't need to do it everyday. But that part of being prepared is knowing you can get through the event. That part of the practice is to practice being miserable, and uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by hopeak

I am not advocating people do "full dress rehearsals". I am advocating, first buy some survival stuff, and also study and learn. And, that one important segment of the learning/study/practice is regular experience of being miserable (Cold, wet, exhausted, and under pressure). I understand Ricks point, I just disagree with it.

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I had a one-day trial on Monday. It was pouring out and I had to park 3 blocks from the courthouse. I didn't bring a raincoat (they tend to disappear once you take them off in court) and I never use those sissy umbrellas. The outcome of the trial, though short, would have caused my client, a military guy, to be separated from the service had we lost. So I was "Cold", "Wet", "Under Pressure", and "kinda tired" . Do 3½ out of 4 count? :)

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Originally Posted by Ken

I had a one-day trial on Monday. It was pouring out and I had to park 3 blocks from the courthouse. I didn't bring a raincoat (they tend to disappear once you take them off in court) and I never use those sissy umbrellas. The outcome of the trial, though short, would have caused my client, a military guy, to be separated from the service had we lost. So I was "Cold", "Wet", "Under Pressure", and "kinda tired" . Do 3½ out of 4 count? :)

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Well, thats kind of the idea, would have been better if the the trial lasted 16 continuous hours, and was held outdoors, at 33 degrees, driving rain, and 55 MPH wind, no food, no drink, and for full effect you could slam your fingers in the door. But, you got the general idea.

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Originally Posted by hopeak

Well, thats kind of the idea, would have been better if the the trial lasted 16 continuous hours, and was held outdoors, at 33 degrees, driving rain, and 55 MPH wind, no food, no drink, and for full effect you could slam your fingers in the door. But, you got the general idea.

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Hopeak, thanks! I am laughing my a$$ off!

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Originally Posted by hopeak

Well, thats kind of the idea, would have been better if the the trial lasted 16 continuous hours, and was held outdoors, at 33 degrees, driving rain, and 55 MPH wind, no food, no drink, and for full effect you could slam your fingers in the door. But, you got the general idea.

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Hopeak, I'm gonna' copy this thread, ESPECIALLY YOUR LAST POST, and share it with some of my lawyer and judge friends. It's fun to watch those guys p*ss themselves. :clap:

There is a movie called: "My dinner with Andre", and a large part of the movie deals with this subject. Andre Gregory, builds this logic case for how an electric blanket, deprives one of the experience of being alive, he talks for 15 minutes about this, and then the other person Wallace Shawn Say's, "But I like my electric blanket, it keeps me warm, I don't want to be cold and miserable, there is enough hardship in my life".

@ Hopeak - I get your point, too, and I don't disagree with it. It's a very valid point. Just not for me.:)

@ Pal - Arguing is for sissies. Gentlemen should be able to cordially disagree, respecting each other's opinion. (Then go raid the loser's root cellar when he leaves :whistling:)

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Originally Posted by Rick

@ Hopeak - I get your point, too, and I don't disagree with it. It's a very valid point. Just not for me.:)

@ Pal - Arguing is for sissies. Gentlemen should be able to cordially disagree, respecting each other's opinion. (Then go raid the loser's root cellar when he leaves :whistling:)

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Agreed, but forgive me if I totaly reject any idea of raiding Hopes cellar (and I am not inferring winning or losing). I have decided from reading his posts, he would most certainly take such an incursion very personally and would not react in a very pleasant manner.

Oh, sure. Leave us hanging. Now how are we supposed to be fulfilled? And whose throne are we striving for?

That was very good reading Remy, its why Siddhartha left the aesthetics. I fully understand what your saying.

But, although sef-denial may not lead to self-realization or enlightenment, it can still show you parts of yourself your were unaware of. And, for me awareness, is integral to intentional living.

I agree it is hard to be objective when you are looking at yourself.
But, thats what this thread is all about- doing things that are hard-
self-examination ain't easy work

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Originally Posted by remy

Parts of yourself...yes...but what parts ?

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well, when I am examining myself, there is usually a flurry of activity around one certain part.

But, in regards to my previous post, and the kind of activity that Hopeak is talking about, it can make you realize your weaknesses. Normally, we are all aware of our weakness, they linger in the back of our mind and eat away at us as insecurities, and we don't want to admit to them, because we are not sure of the truth. Thats why I say TEST THE SYSTEM. Eliminate any doubt, find the weakness, then work on it. Intentional living

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Originally Posted by remy

That is what the occupant of the throne wants you to believe yes.
And so we think that "hard work" is a must.
It is not.

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I agree, if you go back and read my initial posts in this thread, I say, "being uncomfortable is a state of mind". Hard work is a relative phrase. following the words of Robert Frost, if you align your avocation and occupation you'll never work a day in your life...

But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.

But, once again I will state self-examination is an integral part of intentional living.

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Originally Posted by remy

Very hard to be objective, when the witness is already a part of this "self".

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The "Witness" is not part of the "self", the witness is not "PART" of any thing. The witness is. The witness just is.
As in what is, is. And what is not is, is also is.

Black only exist in relativeness to not black, therefore black is black, but black is also not black. As is can not exist absent of that which is not it's self.

Essentially, the type of activity we are talking about leads to really knowing yourself.

Pushing your own limits, mentally and physically is a voyage of self-discovery. The results of that voyage are to me ineffable, and so I can't eloquently argue this any further. Its just to hard to explain, and according to you nothing would be gained by the activity....just mental masterbation

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Originally Posted by remy

What i called mental masturbation is the misuse of the body to work out tensions pertaining to our mental realm.

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I reread your post, and see what your saying, in regards to misuse of the body to workout mental tensions.

However, testing yourself physically to better understand yourself physically, in my eyes is a rewarding experiece, and quite often leads to identifying situations in the mental realm that one may want to further examine as well.

Thank you, Remy, for yet another amusing bit of psychobabble!.

Sadly, your posts above were merely a thinly masked restatement of Darwin. Nothing really original there. But still, I'm proud of you - you really were able to control yourself. You also wanted to restate Freud when you began talking about Maria’s genitals, didn’t you? Refraining from doing so must have killed you.

Well, I believe that we all understand that the human body has evolved and that we have instinctive survival skills. Correct? Like “fight or flight” – that funny reaction we have when we start pumping out adrenalin?

Of course, you once again seized upon a post, this time it was Hopeak’s, to practice your psychoanalytic “talents.” That’s why you’re here, right?

Well, I’m sorry, but I’m no psychologist. (Are you?) However, I don’t see Hopeak’s thread nor the questions he raised as “intellectual masturbation.” IMHO, you have the market cornered on that type of activity.

No, it wasn’t about Hopeak. It was a legitimate question. Allow me to rephrase it:

“Do the members here believe that it would be a good idea to test their equipment, skills, and stamina under conditions which would be more realistic than those encountered while posting on the Forum?”

There. Is THAT “intellectual masturbation”?

Of course, none of your posts would be complete without raising the question of someone’s “insecurities.” Here’s my take on the subject: Again, IMHO, I believe that there is nobody here who would have fewer emotional “insecurities” in a survival situation than Hopeak. You, however, would probably have to call your therapist before you grabbed your BOB and headed out the door.

To quote you, Remy, "I hope this was passionate enough."

Again, I still see what your saying, back to Siddhartha. But, I am not talking about achieving "oneness" through hardship- because we are already one...that is the easy part. All we have to do is wake-up and look around to know that- its a given.

I am talking about exploring beyond the dialogue and finding the primal- not mentally knowing it is possible to be one, but feeling the connection.

Before words...there was something.
Before words there were rhythms , the inner sounds of your lungs inhailing and exhaling in a polyrhythm with your heart beat. The same rhythms that elk, wolves and all the other animals feel, the same rhythms that many of us haven't heard in a long, long time.

Physical exhertion can allow us easy access to those rhythms, physical hardships, tests of endurance and such can crack open this inner ampitheatre so we can once again here the music of the universe that was there all along.

But, these exercises can do more than that- they can make us realize that surviving isn't enough. Surviving is what we are doing as we play trite mental games in our comfortable chairs at our cozy keyboards, quoting poets, eastern-religion and other nonsensical psycho-babble. Thriving is what we are doing when we are out-there dancing to the beat.

Your right there is more to Hopeak. He is Peter Pan, the pied piper and a Wilderness Sage all rolled up into the personage of a gun-toting, sourdough curmedgeon, and basically this thread was a veiled attempt at getting people to get off their butts, off the computer and into the woods in the name of survival preparedness.

And, on that note, I am logging off. The Gallatin River and several miles of big water continuous Class IV are calling my name. Its staying light until 9:30 now, and an after work kayak session is just what Dr Hope ordered!

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Originally Posted by remy

...and i acknowledge the fact that you take great interest in what i write...even though you read poorly.

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Actually, my reading comprehension is quite good. It's an occupational necessity. But please understand - it's not that I read poorly, it's that you write poorly.

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Originally Posted by remy

lolll...a little regression there maybe ?
Well...it's not that i write poorly, it's that your daddy was blind. And your mommy is so fat, that she is really fat.


Ok...i am going for a walk now.
Silly you later Ken.

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This is exactly the type of intelligent response I'd expect from you, Remy.

OK now. Hopeak has probably not gotten all the information that he wanted yet. In an effort to prevent him from asking the question again in another thread after this one gets closed ----- let's just scale it back a notch or two. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by remy

Here are some funny quotes from Einstein...

"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."
"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character."
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"People love chopping wood. In this activity one immediately sees results."

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Great quotes, here are some more:

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."


I find this all interesting.:cool2:

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Originally Posted by remy

lolll...a little regression there maybe ?
Well...it's not that i write poorly, it's that your daddy was blind. And your mommy is so fat, that she is really fat.


Ok...i am going for a walk now.
Silly you later Ken.

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Are we going to do "Yo Mama!" cracks now? Can I play? :innocent: