The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.
Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.
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The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.
Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.
Keep the bad guy locked in the hall with any kids and teachers that are left in the hall?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Lanza was not a hardened facility but everyone thought it was because they had the video entry system. My point is no matter what you (good guys) do, the bad guys will always find a way around them, you cant stop crazy. But have something, anything to defend yourself with is far better than having nothing at all
Get them kids ready...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...psb780356d.jpg
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-cont...impson-doh.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Grizz
Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.
I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.
Thanks for spelling that out! :smartass:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz123
I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.
Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz123
What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P
And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?
Called 'pile on ground"....most little kids can't throw 75 ft (25 yds)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batch
This ^^ could become a new elective class in schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
"Tactical Bean Can Throwing, 101"
Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Grizz123 View Post
Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable
Actually this is already being used in other settings and has seems to be very successful through testing. There are only three words to remember, if you can't remember three words then you have more severe issues than an active shooter to contend with. They have been tested in environments that utilize temp agencies which could be substitutes in schools. This setup is more than doable.
Three words to remember? 100+ teachers, subs, contractors working in the buildings, LEO's and students knowing those words? Changing those words every so often, and if a real threat happens, everyone is thinking "what is this weeks code phrase?"
so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?
Yes, I would much rather have an improvised deadly weapon (scissors) with an element of surprise on my side (doesn't know I am behind the door and coming up behind him) than having completely non lethal items while in the direct field of view of the attacker and well within the effective range of his rifle.
Yes, a lethal weapon is preferred to non-lethal when talking about teachers/adults. But training the average student to use lethal force and then expecting them to act, is not realistic or responsible. Telling them to hide and only fight back when confronted, is more realistic. Asking them to toss cans of food is something they can all do, asking them to stab someone with scissors, pen or make close contact with the bad guy is something most young minds cant grasp and act on.
Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.
The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.no one said do nothing and die, I just know that within the school building there are better improvised weapons than a can. Scissors, chairs, pens, pencils, school books, etc.
Pens and pencils are better than cans?? Making close contact with someone that is obviously not in the right state mind is a good idea? Toss a chair is far more difficult than tossing a can of food, right? School books, I've tossed many of them when in school and they always flopped open and feel to the floor, a can of food would be much more effective.
This is great for you, what about 30 students stuck in a classroom, do they have the right to defend themselves? If you stab the bad guy in the arm, leg or non-lethal area, or miss completely, he is going to be pissed off and try harder next time and now you are within his reach. Actually, "pissed off" shouldn't even enter the equation, the bad guy is already hell bent on hurting people for no reasonQuote:
I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.
If the bad guy opens the door and gets bombarded with 30+ cans of food, he will be forced to retreat and hopefully leave the area. If he doesn't leave, at least you slowed him down giving the LEO's a little more time to show up.
How well did "locking the doors" work out for the kids in Sandy Hook?? What would prevent the bad guy from shooting out the locks and hinges to gain entry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Dont get me wrong, I believe every layer of defense created to slow down the attacker is a good idea, BUT the kids in the classroom is the last line of defense and they should have something to defend themselves with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batch
Teenagers can train in gym class and they would love it. In all the schools I've been to, I've yet to see a classroom 75' long (25 yards). That being said, if the bad guy sees 30+ objects hurled at him, he will most likely retreat to another area or wait till the bombardment ends or shoot himself out of frustration. This will give the LEO's a little more time to show upQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick
For the life of me, I cant figure out why anyone is willing to prevent teens from defending themselves with any means available, when cornered in a deadly situation?? Please explain this to me.
If someone is intent on killing kids then throwing cans won't stop him. He will simply start shooting in a target rich environment. Remember, too, theses are middle school kids not 17-18 year olds. Once the first round is fired it will be utter chaos among the kids. It's a feel good approach to a life and death issue. The solution is to stop the bad guys before they enter the building and have an armed response if he does get inside. To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.
I don't think that is anyone intention.....but the whole scenario is more to draw attention to a increased and real defenses on a real and serious situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz123
Silly draws interest....or at least seemed to here.
Just my take.
I agree with 98% of your statement, the part I don't agree with is the last sentence "To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I never said to rely on throwing stuff, I said to use "as a last resort".
How is it a feel good approach to a life and death issue? The way I see it, its the last line of defense before being shot, a better option than sitting around waiting to get shot. After the first shot there will be chaos BUT if they have some sort of training, they may remain calm enough to have the ability to fight back. And the training could be done in gym class.
Is or will it be 100% effective, heck no!! It is a last ditch effort to slow down the bad guy, possible save some lives and give the LEO's more time to show up. Exterior mag door locks, bullet proof glass, armed teachers/guards, mace, etc... are a much better choices but they are also expensive and most schools aren't willing to put up the money. Even if they do all of the things mentioned, the bad guys will still find a way in (no security method is 100%) which is why the can toss is or should be an option.
I didn't ascribe those words to you. Those were my thoughts. You're probably right.
Grizz, you are tripping over yourself here.
No one ever said that the kids should not defend themselves. Quit telling us that is what we are saying.
Then you say not to rely on throwing stuff, but use it as a last resort. If that is the case, why not throw what is already available? Why prepare for last resort? Why not prepare for an adequate defense instead of last hope? What we are saying is if preparations are to be done, there are way better options then throwing cans. I understand these things because I am involved in planning and procedures for these types of things.
Gawd there's some strange answers here.
It's simple. Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means. I can really see a fruitcake waiting for a classful of kids to open their bags, take out their can of (insert a product here) from their bag and attempt a launch whilst trying to hide. Yeah, that should work, expose yourself to the madman. That's really going to reduce the bodycount. Sheesh.
Yet again some liberal leftie is doing his/her best to complicate a simple situation.
I'm in favor of the Chinese Throwing Algebra Book.
I'm not going to just throw numbers out there but the Canterbury Tales might be a better book. I think a flying Chaucer would do more to stop irrational intent than a pi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Brilliant! Had to give you some rep for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerXanatos
While that's true, and I don't mean to subtract from your point, don't forget that you can multiply the effects with an algebra book and divide the shooters attention between targets. That's a real plus in my algebra book.
If you throw a "Civics Book" the bad guy will just fall asleep.
That or an economics book...Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter63
"zzzzzzzzzzz"....Huh?....What? zzzzzzzzzz
Notice who stays awake and gets good grades in E-con......You will work for him/her someday.
[QUOTE=Batch;452637]
so your simple solution, as expressed above, is for the kids to wait to get shot? And where do they hide in a classroom, behind desks? How long will it take to pile the desks into some sort of defensive manner and after they are piled up, how many bullets will they actually stop of even deflect. Do you think the bad guy will not shoot at the pile of desks? All that work will take much longer than grabbing a can to toss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie
"Sheesh"?? how old are you to use a word like that?
Telling the kids to hide and wait to get shot, is telling them not to defend themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by natertot
I said that throwing stuff is a last line of defense when all other barriers are breached, which history shows, breached barriers happen all the time. And throwing stuff that is readily available is great but in a classroom environment, not nearly as effective as a 16oz can of whatever.
I find it hard to believe you are involved in planning and procedures for these types of events. Do they involve kids (under 18) or adult environments?
Grizz...seriously....you're beating a dead horse. We get that you are in agreement with it. It's time to agree to disagree. And let's not make this personal.
Now you see, you're putting words in my mouth. Please note, my second sentence, then, please note my third sentence (just in case you're having trouble with that, here they are again "Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz123
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means.")
And then there's this from my first post#4 "How about intruders can't get in the School in the first place......"
But hey, you read what you want.
As to how old I am, well, I'm old enough to show some respect to my friends here on WSF and substitute words like 'sheesh' for what I'd really like to say.
Grizz, I am agreeing with Rick on this. I am not going to try and teach you an aspect of my professional career when reading comprehension seems to be a weak trait.
I just can't believe you made a personal attack on Winnie. She is one of the sweetest ladies I have ever met. You, sir, get a major thumbs down.
Lets take this a different way. My neighborhood has recently had a spate of burglaries of autos. The guy was looking for soft targets. Cars that were likely unlocked.
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/C...254933731.html
All you had to do was lock your door and he moved on. Not because anyone couldn't get into ANY of the locked cars. Windows are easy to pop. But, because he wanted to get as many cars as he can in the shortest time.
A shooter doesn't often shoot at targets he can't see, hear or confirm are there. He knows after the first shot is fired his time is limited and he is going to usually take visible targets of opportunity.
So, like statistics prove. Lock your doors and don't leave valuables in plain site.
The best way to survive a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight. If my grand-daughter had my Sig 226 or Glock 34 and was a Annie Oakley. If she was faced with an active shooter with a long gun. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can.
Now, if I could have my grand-daughter train with an AR-15 and carry a go bag and her AR everywhere. And she was faced with an active shooter. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can. But, get you a good line of site on the means of egress into your hiding spot and shoot till the threat is neutralized if he enter.
If she only had a can of soup. I would simply tell her to get to a better spot of concealment and cover.
I get what your saying as a last ditch effort just before you die. I'd rather spend the last couple seconds finding cover and concealment than grabbing my can. To me its not about trying to win a gun fight with a can as a last ditch effort to save my life. Its about maximizing the chances I won't ever have to put my grand-daughter in that position.
I was waiting if anyone would post that he or she would throw a Hong
Nah, use the Hong to improvise a slingshot. Or, in Ricks case, use it to repel down from the fourth floor........
Man, you're braver than me....Have you seen where that Hong's been?Quote:
Originally Posted by natertot
And we have a winner. Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Batch
I am still alive to write this, aren't I?!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie
Shot at.....Rick's hong....... Shot at...... Rick's hong That is a tough choice!:eyore:
Personally, I don't see the dilemma.
New multi-use item for your PSK: A hong. :lol: