Just when you thought it couldn't get any dumber

[Rick]

The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.

Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.

[Grizz123]

The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.

Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.

Keep the bad guy locked in the hall with any kids and teachers that are left in the hall?

Lanza was not a hardened facility but everyone thought it was because they had the video entry system. My point is no matter what you (good guys) do, the bad guys will always find a way around them, you cant stop crazy. But have something, anything to defend yourself with is far better than having nothing at all

[hunter63]

Get them kids ready...
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[Rick]

Keep the bad guy locked in the hall with any kids and teachers that are left in the hall?

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Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

[natertot]

Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

Thanks for spelling that out!

[natertot]

Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable
Actually this is already being used in other settings and has seems to be very successful through testing. There are only three words to remember, if you can't remember three words then you have more severe issues than an active shooter to contend with. They have been tested in environments that utilize temp agencies which could be substitutes in schools. This setup is more than doable.


so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?
Yes, I would much rather have an improvised deadly weapon (scissors) with an element of surprise on my side (doesn't know I am behind the door and coming up behind him) than having completely non lethal items while in the direct field of view of the attacker and well within the effective range of his rifle.

Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.

The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.no one said do nothing and die, I just know that within the school building there are better improvised weapons than a can. Scissors, chairs, pens, pencils, school books, etc.

I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.

[Batch]

My point is no matter what you (good guys) do, the bad guys will always find a way around them, you cant stop crazy. But have something, anything to defend yourself with is far better than having nothing at all

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P

[Rick]

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

[hunter63]

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

Called 'pile on ground"....most little kids can't throw 75 ft (25 yds)

[MrFixIt]

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

This ^^ could become a new elective class in schools.
"Tactical Bean Can Throwing, 101"

[Grizz123]

Quote Originally Posted by Grizz123 View Post
Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable
Actually this is already being used in other settings and has seems to be very successful through testing. There are only three words to remember, if you can't remember three words then you have more severe issues than an active shooter to contend with. They have been tested in environments that utilize temp agencies which could be substitutes in schools. This setup is more than doable.

Three words to remember? 100+ teachers, subs, contractors working in the buildings, LEO's and students knowing those words? Changing those words every so often, and if a real threat happens, everyone is thinking "what is this weeks code phrase?"

so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?
Yes, I would much rather have an improvised deadly weapon (scissors) with an element of surprise on my side (doesn't know I am behind the door and coming up behind him) than having completely non lethal items while in the direct field of view of the attacker and well within the effective range of his rifle.

Yes, a lethal weapon is preferred to non-lethal when talking about teachers/adults. But training the average student to use lethal force and then expecting them to act, is not realistic or responsible. Telling them to hide and only fight back when confronted, is more realistic. Asking them to toss cans of food is something they can all do, asking them to stab someone with scissors, pen or make close contact with the bad guy is something most young minds cant grasp and act on.

Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.

The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.no one said do nothing and die, I just know that within the school building there are better improvised weapons than a can. Scissors, chairs, pens, pencils, school books, etc.

Pens and pencils are better than cans?? Making close contact with someone that is obviously not in the right state mind is a good idea? Toss a chair is far more difficult than tossing a can of food, right? School books, I've tossed many of them when in school and they always flopped open and feel to the floor, a can of food would be much more effective.

I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.

This is great for you, what about 30 students stuck in a classroom, do they have the right to defend themselves? If you stab the bad guy in the arm, leg or non-lethal area, or miss completely, he is going to be pissed off and try harder next time and now you are within his reach. Actually, "pissed off" shouldn't even enter the equation, the bad guy is already hell bent on hurting people for no reason

If the bad guy opens the door and gets bombarded with 30+ cans of food, he will be forced to retreat and hopefully leave the area. If he doesn't leave, at least you slowed him down giving the LEO's a little more time to show up.

[Grizz123]

Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

How well did "locking the doors" work out for the kids in Sandy Hook?? What would prevent the bad guy from shooting out the locks and hinges to gain entry?

Dont get me wrong, I believe every layer of defense created to slow down the attacker is a good idea, BUT the kids in the classroom is the last line of defense and they should have something to defend themselves with

[Grizz123]

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

Teenagers can train in gym class and they would love it. In all the schools I've been to, I've yet to see a classroom 75' long (25 yards). That being said, if the bad guy sees 30+ objects hurled at him, he will most likely retreat to another area or wait till the bombardment ends or shoot himself out of frustration. This will give the LEO's a little more time to show up

[Grizz123]

For the life of me, I cant figure out why anyone is willing to prevent teens from defending themselves with any means available, when cornered in a deadly situation?? Please explain this to me.

[Rick]

If someone is intent on killing kids then throwing cans won't stop him. He will simply start shooting in a target rich environment. Remember, too, theses are middle school kids not 17-18 year olds. Once the first round is fired it will be utter chaos among the kids. It's a feel good approach to a life and death issue. The solution is to stop the bad guys before they enter the building and have an armed response if he does get inside. To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.

[hunter63]

For the life of me, I cant figure out why anyone is willing to prevent teens from defending themselves with any means available, when cornered in a deadly situation?? Please explain this to me.

I don't think that is anyone intention.....but the whole scenario is more to draw attention to a increased and real defenses on a real and serious situation.

Silly draws interest....or at least seemed to here.
Just my take.

[Grizz123]

If someone is intent on killing kids then throwing cans won't stop him. He will simply start shooting in a target rich environment. Remember, too, theses are middle school kids not 17-18 year olds. Once the first round is fired it will be utter chaos among the kids. It's a feel good approach to a life and death issue. The solution is to stop the bad guys before they enter the building and have an armed response if he does get inside. To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.

I agree with 98% of your statement, the part I don't agree with is the last sentence "To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.".

I never said to rely on throwing stuff, I said to use "as a last resort".

How is it a feel good approach to a life and death issue? The way I see it, its the last line of defense before being shot, a better option than sitting around waiting to get shot. After the first shot there will be chaos BUT if they have some sort of training, they may remain calm enough to have the ability to fight back. And the training could be done in gym class.

Is or will it be 100% effective, heck no!! It is a last ditch effort to slow down the bad guy, possible save some lives and give the LEO's more time to show up. Exterior mag door locks, bullet proof glass, armed teachers/guards, mace, etc... are a much better choices but they are also expensive and most schools aren't willing to put up the money. Even if they do all of the things mentioned, the bad guys will still find a way in (no security method is 100%) which is why the can toss is or should be an option.

[Rick]

I didn't ascribe those words to you. Those were my thoughts. You're probably right.

[natertot]

Grizz, you are tripping over yourself here.

No one ever said that the kids should not defend themselves. Quit telling us that is what we are saying.

Then you say not to rely on throwing stuff, but use it as a last resort. If that is the case, why not throw what is already available? Why prepare for last resort? Why not prepare for an adequate defense instead of last hope? What we are saying is if preparations are to be done, there are way better options then throwing cans. I understand these things because I am involved in planning and procedures for these types of things.

[Winnie]

Gawd there's some strange answers here.

It's simple. Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means. I can really see a fruitcake waiting for a classful of kids to open their bags, take out their can of (insert a product here) from their bag and attempt a launch whilst trying to hide. Yeah, that should work, expose yourself to the madman. That's really going to reduce the bodycount. Sheesh.

Yet again some liberal leftie is doing his/her best to complicate a simple situation.