What do you know about flint and primitive tools?

I can't deny the fact that my basic survival skills in the rainforest started off with primitive arts, skills and tools. This is actually good ..in case you are caught with your Hongs down...hehe..but I am always prepared. As I have written before, I always have on me or within my reach 3 types of fire kit, some water purifying tablet, at least a container for cooking, a tarp and a small lite hammock. I always carry My EKA Siss 8 in my pocket and my OKC SK 5 in my truck. So I think I 've got it covered.

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Originally Posted by Tokwan

I can't deny the fact that my basic survival skills in the rainforest started off with primitive arts, skills and tools. This is actually good ..in case you are caught with your Hongs down...hehe..but I am always prepared. As I have written before, I always have on me or within my reach 3 types of fire kit, some water purifying tablet, at least a container for cooking, a tarp and a small lite hammock. I always carry My EKA Siss 8 in my pocket and my OKC SK 5 in my truck. So I think I 've got it covered.

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Smart. Like I said in my fire starting thread, I like to carry modern gear any time I go out (modern compared to a ferro rod, that is). But, like you say, it's never bad to have the skill on hand. My train of thought is practice now, don't get stuck later.

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Originally Posted by Zack

I've been interested lately in the idea of making primitive tools. I think that they're pretty tools, especially knives, and I've head (maybe incorrectly) that they can do better than their modern counterparts. What do you know about primitive tools? Flint? Where is it found (besides Ebay)? What do you recommend to a beginner in terms of projects and a "tool box"? Thanks, please reply!

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My 2 Cents, I am NOT an expert, but respect those who actually are.

Most "flint" that you find on the ground or buy online is junk, fun to mess around with but useless for anything serious. Read this and other similar articles written by folks who know what the heck they are talking about:
http://www.flintknappingtools.com/where_flint.html

I have been told that when removing the hide from an animal (small or large doesn't matter) a stone tool versus steel can be used by someone who knows what the heck they are doing to damage the hide less and possibly finish that particular task faster. Personally I am out of practice and often cut thru the hide just a little bit especially if it is well below freezing and my fingers are getting very stiff (but better than warm with flies all over the place). There is a lot of technique, practice, skill and a understanding of anatomy, tissue etc required to do a good job in a reasonable amount of time. Not stand out there looking like a fool freezing to death. Just my personal experience YMMV. I actually do process everything I shoot but am very slow at it, perhaps I should try to make a stone knife and learn how to properly "knap" it to keep it sharp. Not some tourist knife from China with freeze damage stone.

Flint knapping can also be a lot of fun, hopefully you can find a great instructor and really enjoy it. Cheap stuff from China prevents most people from making any real money from it so think of it as a fun hobby. But like most skills if you go months without using those skill you will lose most of them. I hope you can find a location near you where you can find and actually dig up some good quality glass this spring time. That in of its self could be fun.

While I agree that some stone tool materials, flint, chert, sugar quartz and many others....it is after all "real rock"

I don't think China has figured out a way to make "cheap flint".....LOL

The may sell questionable stone as "flint"......so the research to find good quality, as well as good sized blanks is always the first step.
Good point.

BTW not far from "The Place" (our cabin) is the location of the Hixton Sugar quartz deposit....prized all over the Americas as good workable stone....even more so after being "heat treated"

http://www.meadwildlife.org/index.ph...paleo-indians/

Good idea to find a quality source of raw stone/glass near you for a reasonable price (about $1/lb or less depending on stone some are good price for much higher). 1st decide which type of tools you want, i.e. just fire starter, or simple crude cutting instrument or something more sophisticated? Then can you figure out how to heat treat it yourself or is it best to pay for this service or is it even necessary? All I have are questions, I am mostly clueless as well Zack.

Here is a relatively local source for me for just one popular type of "flint". It is SW of Little Rock, AR near the Ouachita National Forest which is a fun place for me to camp and run around like a primitive wannabe. (dry humor).

http://www.magnetcovestone.net/main.htm
Anthropological write up at site listed above gives me a migraine, OMG. Hope their stone is better.

There are also several relatively good websites (Not just flea-bay) where craftsmen sell "flint" items and "flint" crafting tools etc but buying in person is always best IMO, such as at a craft fair, outdoors event etc. But even much of this stuff is knives in the style of steel knives but made out of stone, does not make sense to me but I'm sure it sells well. Tourist stuff IMO.

Also not sure where you can find best skilled "Knappers" (spell autocorrector killing me) in your area but, call around, check online, Parks and Rec, Outdoor clubs, Hunting Clubs, Camping Supply stores may offer classes etc. If you can find someone good who is also good at teaching that would be great.

Back to processing wild game: it is easy to nick the inside of hide or outer protective layer of the muscles (ham, shoulder, backstrap etc). Cutting thru the hide even a little is very bad obviously and if you cut into the muscles you lose this outer protective layer and the meat does not freeze or smoke as well. Therefore, I have been told that a "flint" knife properly made in good condition can do this better and stay sharper longer than the very best steel knife. I would like to try one but never have. I have seen video but could not find any good ones on youtube, mostly BS junk there. Just my personal opinion based on very limited experience. However, even a "flint" knife will not stay sharp "forever", even the very best will chip especially if you hit bone, drop it etc. So what good is a knife you don't know how to sharpen properly? Also just my personal opinion based on little knowledge.

If there are not people at this forum who know a heck of a lot more than me then there definitely are at other "outdoor" forums. Hopefully someone here can even sell you a knife and/or "flint" fire starter and tell you how to use and care for it properly.

Fairly good video of Mike Cook using "flint" knife to skin a WT deer (bit of humor by him as well).
DO NOT Watch if you are a vegan or do not want to know where your animal protein comes from!!!!

http://youtu.be/HyBpcURCAJ8

Personally I prefer to use a ceramic knife because I am a cheap fool, but this guy and others have convinced me there may be a better way. Also I prefer not to use "deer processing" places because often the game they return to you is not what you gave them and you have no idea how many times it fell on the floor, touched hide or entrails or scent glands etc. Or if person who actually shot it field dressed it properly or let it sit in hot sun to long or whatever. I could go on and on but I have been processing animals since I was very young and am still learning. Personally it just gives me more respect for what I shoot and eat. Also the tools I buy and use. "Flint" or whatever you call it seems cool I should really learn more.

Fun little international "Rock" video tour by "Art of Ishi" (aka Mike Cook):

http://youtu.be/VihHFFBrVjc

This video is rated G for all viewers even those who never eat meat, milk or any critter products. (weird humor)

If you can find an all day or multiple day instructional "knapping" class in your area by someone like Mike Cook and you are an outdoors nerd like me you will not be doing any napping in that fun entraining class (pun intended).

edit: On youtube "paleomanjim" and others have good intro knapping videos. He and others can give you some tips on how to make tools and also simple arrowheads from "grocery store" glass bottles, i.e. they have about a #5 hardness rating similar to several natural volcanic glass "stones". But eventually IMO it is best to take a class where a "live" instructor can help you one on one. YT has its limits.

I always have my flint and steel with char cloth in my fire kit. That is actually my go to generally when it's time for a fire. I like to start fires with it and maintain the skill. I figure if I can consistently start a fire with a flint and steel all the other stuff I have will be much easier in an emergency or I'm just feeling lazy. I buy my flint from a co. Called track of the wolf. They are flintlock flints made with good black English flint . I hunt with flintlocks and when the flint is no longer good for in my rock lock I throw it in my fire kit and replace my locks flint.

Comparing the science between "Flint Knapping" and "Pigskin Physics" that has been in the news recently, makes me unsure which is more complex. But I'm guessing there may be some PhD candidate students at MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts requesting to do their doctoral thesis on "Pigskin Physics" not "Flint Knapping Physics". LOL Very entertaining from a science standpoint, hopefully we will soon be mostly just entertained by men chasing pigskin, not the side show. Deflated pigskin may be useful for holding "flint" while knapping it but I would never accuse anyone of doing this without strong evidence. OH I should really just shut up. LOL

What..........?

Seriously here is a good article for people interested:
http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2...ng/index.phtml

For those who live near the Fort Worth, Texas area Angela Parker is very good if you can catch her giving a class or demonstration (Knap-in). Piles of chips for fire starting. She also sells some good small "primitive style" knives for a reasonable price at:
http://www.nativeprimitives.com/knives/index.html

Sorry H63 about that science nerd post #29, some folks just don't "get" that sense of humor.

Footballs...pigskins...gotcha.....flint knapping.....yeah I can see the connection.....Yeah, that's the ticket.....

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Originally Posted by hunter63

Footballs...pigskins...gotcha.....flint knapping.....yeah I can see the connection.....Yeah, that's the ticket.....

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"Flint Knapping" is highly technical, most of us who have tried it mostly just turn many pounds of "rock" into gravel. (Thus importance of finding source of big 12" stones for less than $1/lb, hopefully heat treated, weaker but easier to knap blah blah). But those "Patriots" from the Boston, MA area have been making footballs seem like an extremely complex science of physics, chemistry and meteorology. So I was only joking about it. Weather on one side of the field was a remarkably different micro climate that other side during first half then remained the same during second half. This scientific phenomenon has the the media in a buzz. LOL

Once some people thought primitive people made flint arrowheads by pouring cold water on hot flint. LOL What silly people will believe. Ha Ha Ha.

Actually, refrigeration was invented for that very reason. For the cold water. The travois was used to drag the refrigerator around. Since electricity was so scarce they used a really really long extension cord. This, of course, allowed the cavalry to track them and, eventually, led to the defeat of the Native American. It's amazing what you can learn here.

Actually as part of our Archeological Society display, was going to be a demonstration of heat treating of chert and the Hixton Sugar quartz.
Was going to be put on by a collage professor and a local knapper.

This was at out annual rendezvous....the park guy. shut them down as he was afraid that rock may explode.
So the city guy is telling the collage guys they can't do their thing....was pretty funny, but think he may have had a point.

Here is a pic that hayshaker asked me to share:Attachment 10511

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Originally Posted by TXyakr

Good idea to find a quality source of raw stone/glass near you for a reasonable price (about $1/lb or less depending on stone some are good price for much higher). 1st decide which type of tools you want, i.e. just fire starter, or simple crude cutting instrument or something more sophisticated? Then can you figure out how to heat treat it yourself or is it best to pay for this service or is it even necessary? All I have are questions, I am mostly clueless as well Zack.

Here is a relatively local source for me for just one popular type of "flint". It is SW of Little Rock, AR near the Ouachita National Forest which is a fun place for me to camp and run around like a primitive wannabe. (dry humor).

http://www.magnetcovestone.net/main.htm
Anthropological write up at site listed above gives me a migraine, OMG. Hope their stone is better.

There are also several relatively good websites (Not just flea-bay) where craftsmen sell "flint" items and "flint" crafting tools etc but buying in person is always best IMO, such as at a craft fair, outdoors event etc. But even much of this stuff is knives in the style of steel knives but made out of stone, does not make sense to me but I'm sure it sells well. Tourist stuff IMO.

Also not sure where you can find best skilled "Knappers" (spell autocorrector killing me) in your area but, call around, check online, Parks and Rec, Outdoor clubs, Hunting Clubs, Camping Supply stores may offer classes etc. If you can find someone good who is also good at teaching that would be great.

Back to processing wild game: it is easy to nick the inside of hide or outer protective layer of the muscles (ham, shoulder, backstrap etc). Cutting thru the hide even a little is very bad obviously and if you cut into the muscles you lose this outer protective layer and the meat does not freeze or smoke as well. Therefore, I have been told that a "flint" knife properly made in good condition can do this better and stay sharper longer than the very best steel knife. I would like to try one but never have. I have seen video but could not find any good ones on youtube, mostly BS junk there. Just my personal opinion based on very limited experience. However, even a "flint" knife will not stay sharp "forever", even the very best will chip especially if you hit bone, drop it etc. So what good is a knife you don't know how to sharpen properly? Also just my personal opinion based on little knowledge.

If there are not people at this forum who know a heck of a lot more than me then there definitely are at other "outdoor" forums. Hopefully someone here can even sell you a knife and/or "flint" fire starter and tell you how to use and care for it properly.

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Thanks. I found out that a local state park has a flint knapping class this month. I think I'll register...

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Originally Posted by Zack

Thanks. I found out that a local state park has a flint knapping class this month. I think I'll register...

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That sounds like a very good opportunity. Here in Texas most of the events at state parks are just demos, a class would be much better. There are definitely some full day and longer class around TX especially from the Austin to San Antonio area (Edwards Plateau Chert) but these are mostly private and the classes typically fill up fast depending on the instructor.

#1 If I were you I would definitely bring at least one heavy duty canvas bag and quietly ask the instructor before/after if I could have some of the scrap chips. These can be useful for many things, starting fire obviously but also practice pressure flaking, notching etc.

#2 Pair of safety glasses (if you already have some that are comfortable, don't fall off easily, don't fog up like goggles etc, if outside sunglasses may work. They may provide cheap safety goggles which I don't like.)

#3 Probably best to wait for instructors recommendations on tools but people like YT "paleomanjim" have great ideas on how to make your own basic tools. If you really get into it you may invest in better more task specific tools over the years but something cheap and simple to get started is important.

Once you start looking you will realize that almost every corner of the world has knappable stone or glass. A hot spot for me has been the Edwards Plateau and regions west. I typically look for oxidized dinosaur egg or football looking rocks, crack the edge off to check or wack two together. Along rivers, new erosion areas. A friend has a 2000+ acre ranch west of S.A., he often repairs or creates new roads/jeep trails with his D9 (bulldozer) this tears up lots of new limestone in dry creek beds, canyons, hillsides, rips up junipers etc. I may need to go through 200 tons of limestone to fine 100 pounds of good quality chert (flint) but it is worth it. Like most things the more a person looks for something the better you get at it and the less time you waste doing it. My wife also has a great aunt who owns tens of thousands of acres of ranch land in west Texas, I need to spend more time exploring that area for knapping rock. But hauling it out is an issue.

Edit: Hayshaker's photo in comment #36 shows several excellent primitive style stone knives posted by MrFixit. This may be a very ambitious project for day one but a great goal to have in mind. I think Mike Cook has a video on youtube of him quartering up a deer with a stone knife even simpler than these with just a stone blade attached to a split stick with a wedge and some cord holding it together. Thigh bone of a deer/elk is obviously much cooler than a stick.

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Originally Posted by hunter63

Actually as part of our Archeological Society display, was going to be a demonstration of heat treating of chert and the Hixton Sugar quartz.
Was going to be put on by a collage professor and a local knapper.

This was at out annual rendezvous....the park guy. shut them down as he was afraid that rock may explode.
So the city guy is telling the collage guys they can't do their thing....was pretty funny, but think he may have had a point.

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I could be wrong, but from what I have seen it would take an extreme amount of effort to get chert and quartz to explode and crack open a ceramics kiln oven typically used to heat treat these stones. Perhaps if you soaked them for many hours, then froze them solid, and put them in a oven preheated to over 2,000°F it might crack open but I seriously doubt it would explode. LOL

That story about the Flintstones Collage professor versus the volunteer or employee at the State Park reminded me of my Brother-in-Law who ran as fast as he could from his first minor fender binder auto accident that damaged the front bumper a bit because he thought the car would explode. He had grown up watching ridiculous shows on TV. It also make me thing of this:
http://rlv.zcache.com/flintstones_bu..._8byvr_512.jpg

My parents did not allow any TVs in our home because they said TVs are "idiot boxes". So I had to spend my time reading books, doing school work, playing sports, running around outside getting into all kinds of fun. Some of which involved attempting to blow up things with black powder and whatever the chemistry books said would combine well and I could find at the H.W. store or grocery store. Surprisingly most of my explosives went off more like rocket engines and did not actually blow the tree stumps out of the cow pasture, but that is how kids learn things without a TV to misinform them. Surprisingly I still have all my fingers and toes and only a few minor flesh wounds and burns, hearing in right ear is mostly gone however from some explosions in drainage pipes and homemade muzzle loaders. Worth it! a childhood in front of a TV would have been a waste.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Actually, refrigeration was invented for that very reason. For the cold water. The travois was used to drag the refrigerator around. Since electricity was so scarce they used a really really long extension cord. This, of course, allowed the cavalry to track them and, eventually, led to the defeat of the Native American. It's amazing what you can learn here.

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While reading some microfiche in the archives at BYU I came across a remarkable archaeological finding that supports your theory, Rick. Years ago in some “salt caves” above the great lake out west “they” discovered an ancient refrigerator and forge furnace. Along with these were the detailed instructions on how to use them to fashion all manner of stone implements in the original languages of the “Lamanites”, “Nephites” and “Jaredites”. Also found with them was a golden tablet in ancient Hebrew written in synoptic format alongside these other ancient languages. It was used as a “Rosetta Stone” to translate the instructions. To my amazement Nat Geo Channel has never done a TV special on this discovery. Perhaps I only dreamed about this after eating a large chocolate dessert one night. LOL “fish story”