Tracking Software?? please ur opinions [Archive]

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AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 07:11 PM

Hi everybody,

Well I'm not an expert in tracking neither a wilderness survival :) , I'm an information system student and my graduation project happened to be a software that identify the footprint track of an animal on the sand/mud etc.. and I'm so excited about that coz it would give the chance to learn something interesting and new as tracking.

The initial idea of the project will be as the following:
We will start with limited number of spices from our area to test the success of the idea. The software will be like that a web camera or a mobile one capture a photo of the track, then it'll be send to the software in the laptop where a previous algorithms of each track already had been recorded. The computer will do the image processing and get the result of whom the animal is. Of course as a beginning we will focus on 2 or 3 species and later then develop the program to have more choices and features.

What I want to ask you guys is the following::

From your point of view, What would it mean to you as wilderness survival to have such a software? do you think it's useful? and if not , then Why? do you have suggestion to the idea of the project? and in the first place why is it important to track?

Please guys I would appreciate any responses from you. Feel free to say/suggest whatever you want. I really need opinions to document and start the projects.

Thanks for reading this

trax

11-20-2008, 07:34 PM

Seriously?

Rick

11-20-2008, 07:38 PM

trax

11-20-2008, 07:41 PM

and could you find a slightly larger font? The guy across the street who was reading over my shoulder phoned over and complained that he couldn't make out some of your message.

trax

11-20-2008, 07:59 PM

Well, somehow I'm still having a little trouble taking that post seriously to begin with, but I've got half an hour to kill so.....

1. Everything Rick said is valid, what utilization would the software have is the big question, I don't carry a computer around out in the bush. He!!, I don't even have a portable computer, come to think of it I don't even have a compass.
2. There's a lot more to an animal's track than just looking at it. Depth, feel of the earth, comparison to the earth in the track to the earth around it, figuring out the effects of current weather conditions on the track.
3. There's a lot more to tracking than humping around like a numpty following footprints. If that's all you apply to tracking that's what you'll always do, follow the animal around. Since the animal has already made tracks you've determined yourself to stay behind it. If you can run really fast for a really long time, then you'll still be behind it but you'll be all out of breath and probably scratched up from tree branches and such. You also study things like droppings, tree rubbings, places where moss or grass have been disturbed, estimated distances to water sources. Upcoming weather is going to play a Huge factor in the animal's behavior, so is season. So is the presence/population of predators or prey or other food sources. Those are all part of tracking properly.
4. Having an image of an animal's track and saying you're tracking is like looking at a photograph of someone and saying you know the person because you saw the photograph.

Hey, I've still got 28 minutes left to kill.

AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 08:00 PM

I have a lot of thoughts that I'll share with you but I also have some questions.

1. What level of education are you graduating at?
2. Are you an English Second Language (ESL) student?
3. What programming language are you writing the program in?
4. What do you expect to achieve with the program?

There are folks on here far, FAR, more knowledgeable than me on tracking but just knowing what kind of animal is only a part of tracking. Actually, a rather small part. You can also tell the sex, weight and speed of the animal by its track.

If all you want to achieve is just identifying the animal then it's value is a bit limited. At least for me.

How do you intend for the program to be utilized? In other words, do I need to submit a picture to the program for it to identify the animal? What is the input mechanism?

Once I understand the answer to those questions, I can offer up some additional information.

Well first of all thanks for your replay;
1. What level of education are you graduating at?
Bachelor Degree in Information systems analysis and design from computer science college

2. Are you an English Second Language (ESL) student?
:o Yes, sorry I know my English is not that good.

3. What programming language are you writing the program in?
Till now we have not decided yet, May be C++ with OpenCV for Image Processing, OR MATLAB. If you have better suggestion, you may do. :)

4. What do you expect to achieve with the program?
well, that's what I'm trying to figure out so I posted here. From my search till now, the software is supposed to help people interested in tracking, also to help scientists record the type of species in a particular area, ..etc.

Actually, I don't intend to just identify the footprint, but also we'll try to find some other features as you mentioned up there.

"How do you intend for the program to be utilized? In other words, do I need to submit a picture to the program for it to identify the animal? What is the input mechanism? "

we planed that the software will have it's own database of tracks. So, you just need to have the laptop/mobile camera , capture the image, download it to the SW which will do the processing and give you the result.

Hope I was clear,

AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 08:15 PM

"and could you find a slightly larger font? The guy across the street who was reading over my shoulder phoned over and complained that he couldn't make out some of your message"

LOOOOOOL
<<is that clear enough .. well sorry for the inconvenience Mr. trax

Anyway.. from the researches I've been doing.. it's would be more useful for researchers. There are similar requests for projects like mine on wildtrack.org
and the Omanian Government is doing such a research to protect the en dangerous species and many others.

anyway, if the topic is bothering you that much. forget about it and live ur life.. no harm happened ..OK!

Rick

11-20-2008, 08:18 PM

You were very clear and your response to my questions help me confirm how valid your quest really was. And it makes a huge difference if someone were graduating grade school vs. someone graduating college. I really wanted to validate what level of design you were interested in.

I think there are several applications in which the software could be valuable. Not so much in individuals tracking for hunting or trapping but in the field of research, for example. It might be very helpful to be able to track multiple animals in a wolf pack. Depending on how sophisticated you design the software you might even be able to identify an individual animal. The nice thing about computers is they "see" and analyze so much more than we do regardless of how good our skills are. Assuming, of course, the program allows them to do that.

You might also be able to define the number of male/female animals in a given herd/pack. Wild life biologists might find such a program very useful.

I suggest you invest in a few books for your research. Tom Brown's "The Tracker" and "Tom Brown's Art and Science of Tracking" are excellent. The man knows his stuff. James Halfpenny also has a couple of good books that I like, "Scats and tracks of the Pacific Coast states" and "Field Guide to Mammal Tracking in North America".

Whether you know it or not, you've taken on a very complex task that requires a LOT of research on your part if you want to do this correctly.

As for your English, it's just fine.

Sourdough

11-20-2008, 08:21 PM

Ok'dokie..........:)

trax

11-20-2008, 08:22 PM

Why do people ask for opinions and then get their panties in a knot when they get opinions? I wish you, your research and the Omanian government all well in your future endeavors there pumpkin.

Hey Rick? I'll betcha I could track individual wolves in a pack. Ask hopeak or beo or klkak or jason montana if they think that'd be easy, but I bet I could.

nell67

11-20-2008, 08:24 PM

trax

11-20-2008, 08:26 PM

Ok'dokie..........:)

Yep, what he said

Rick

11-20-2008, 08:30 PM

I have no doubt you can. I'm sure you can tell all the things outlined above. BUT! Not everyone can do that and not everyone knows every specie out there. If you were a wild life biologist and suddenly found yourself on a project mapping the territorial wanderings of the Solenodon or even the Aye Aye or even the Echidna you might find yourself out of your realm. Although tracking those wolves would certainly be an asset. You might think to yourself, "Gee. If I had a software program that would help me track these guys....."

AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 08:37 PM

here are some links to what I think is close to our main goal,
ofcourse the advance features like GPS won't be added at this point of the project

http://www.wildtrack.org/

http://www.t4cd.org/Resources/ICT_Resources/Technologies/Pages/ICTTechnology_146.aspx

http://www.t4cd.org/Resources/ICT_Resources/Projects/Pages/ICTProject_219.aspx

http://www.sas.com/success/wildtrack.html

klkak

11-20-2008, 08:38 PM

I am a fairly good tracker. I was taught at an early age and have been building upon that my whole life. I have tracked everything from field mice to humans. I can tell you from experience that tracking anything requires more then being able to identify a track. For instance; telling the difference between a wolf track and a large dog track is impossible unless you know the difference between the way the two animals act.

I once was asked to help track a man on the run. He knew he was being followed so was very careful of the way he walk and where he put his feet down. At one point he left no visible human tacks for several hundred yards. I was a bit perplexed for a time until I seen a rock with lichen on it that had been ever so slightly disturbed. Finding this sign took the ability to reason.

Another form of tracking is following a blood trail. There are several types of lights available now that help in seeing blood in the dark. Unfortunately the blood must be on top of the ground litter or foliage. Quite often blood tracking requires getting down on your belly and looking up at the bottom of the foliage in order to see slight traces of blood left from the animals passing.

In any form of tracking the animal or human is going somewhere. You have to have a knowledge of the area you are in and an idea of why the human or animal is traveling in that direction and at what point they may change direction. You would have to have the input from several different experienced trackers from a particular area to provide all their knowledge of tracking in that area and program it into the computer. After all that programming the computer would still not have the ability to look at a slightly disturbed blade of grass and know what you are looking for has passed that way.

Now that I've finished my piece about this I think someone should track this persons I.P. address. This sounds to much like one of our friends from the north west coast of Europe.

Rick

11-20-2008, 08:41 PM

Well, Klkak, you're right on the money. He is.

AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 08:46 PM

Well Well ,, Big Sorry trax .. I may get over the limit but I was not in the mood..
yeh you were right, I asked for opinions . :o sorry again

Rick .. a big Thank You
I know I've taken a hard task.. but I'm determine to achive it no matter what..
It requires alot of research but it's ok that's what info. analysis is meant to do.

hmm,.. I may recontact you for further inquiry if that's ok.
Thanks again

klkak

11-20-2008, 08:46 PM

Holy Cow! I'm such a good tracker I don't even need to see it to follow it. :D

nell67

11-20-2008, 08:48 PM

klkak

11-20-2008, 09:02 PM

Glad to be of service :)

AutoTrackingTeam

11-20-2008, 09:03 PM

Arigatto Gozaimusu.. HoNtoni Arigatto
<<don't bother reading .. it's Japanese .. and it says thanks ;)
Thank you very much (klkak,nell67,Rick, trax) ..
Really thanks.. Well, I'll take the opinions to the Prof. and see what he would say..
:) He would probably Kill me and quit the project...
Peace

crashdive123

11-20-2008, 09:05 PM

Just because this guy is coming from a part of the world where we happen to get a lot of trolls doesn't mean he's not legit.....does it?

klkak

11-20-2008, 09:09 PM

Probably...!!!

trax

11-20-2008, 10:14 PM

Probably...!!!

Yes, bro, if I may just point out my initial suspicions about the request, that was it. But the request could be legit, I appreciate your input on the subject and Rick, I'm not saying the software might not be valuable to someone especially in the scenario you described. If I was one of those individuals however, I think my money would be better spent employing a local person with the requisite skills. Just a thought, like I was saying, all I offered was my opinion and I'm not someone who's going to be packing around a computer in the bush. I am kind of an old fashioned guy, I'm the first to admit that. And like I said, I bet I could pick out a single wolf and focus on it's tracks from the pack, but it would take some serious studying and some time for me to do so.....

klkak

11-21-2008, 12:29 AM

I bet I could pick out a single wolf and focus on it's tracks from the pack, but it would take some serious studying and some time for me to do so.....

And that is what makes a tracker. The ability to study sign and use reasoning and experience to figure it out.:)

laughing beetle

11-21-2008, 01:05 AM

Why is there such a problem with users from that particular part of Europe? :confused:Just asking...:o I guess what I am wondering is why are they such little p****s?:confused::confused:

Dennis K.

11-21-2008, 12:34 PM

I could see it as a possible tool for field biologists, especially if the software offered a range of modeling for predictability - kind of in the way weather stations track hurricanes.
If the software were to integrate gps modeling - perhaps through the radio transmitters of tagged animals - it could become tremendously useful.
Obviously, software like this will not come close to a real, experienced tracker. But, it could provide a lot of information and analysis very quickly that would normally take a person a lifetime to master.
How useful will it be? idunno. depends.

Reiver

11-22-2008, 05:57 AM

A.T.T. it you are still around, I will try to help. I am not an excellent tracker like others on the forum, but I do hunt, can track and have 30yrs software development exp (C, Python, databases and plenty more not relevant here).

My Comments & Questions for you:
Q1) Have you a set of clearly stated aims for this project yet? Can we see them?

Q2) What assumptions have you made so far in terms of project scope? => what will be included, excluded?

Q3) Since you have included this (and other?) survival forum in your list of Stakeholders, who else will be involved. I ask this because it implies you already have some sort of a plan.

Q4) What *exactly* can this forum provide that will help you, other than generalized comments. You have introduced yourself and your project, but it is not yet clear to me what you need from us.

C1) I am presuming this is not a telemetry-based tracking project, but more like the Wild Track Project, where captured track data is not required to be processed in real-time on-site. Data is processed against a database of prints and measurement and other specific animal identifiers. Right?

C2) I do not see this as a useful 'hunting' or 'survival' tool, but potentially useful for animal preservation / conservation and maybe training.

C3) I see a possible use for govt / local council / county agencies involved in profiling animal populations in order to schedule culls and hunting seasons, as well as pest animal control. ie: the fox or rabbit population in area X is reaching plague proportions - so open a special hunting season etc - this is all hypothetical.

C4) I see a possible use in training young /old hunters and others to recognize animal tracks, and study their behavior etc. ie: sex, numbers, weight, health, activities animal is undertaking, breeding, migration, predation activity..... If you make this an open architecture system, it might be scalable to county, state and national levels.

C5) Remember: Hunters and animal trackers in the wild will all use a totally different approach to you as a programmer - think about that! Human hunters use a HEURISTIC approach, not ALGORITHMIC. What do I mean by that?

The term Heuristic seems to have two main usages:

1) Describing an approach to learning by trying without necessarily having an organized hypothesis or way of proving that the results proved or disproved the hypothesis. That is, "seat-of-the-pants" or "trial-by-error" learning.

2) Pertaining to the use of the general knowledge gained by experience, sometimes expressed as "using a rule-of-thumb." (However, heuristic knowledge can be applied to complex as well as simple everyday problems. Human chess players use a heuristic approach.)

C6) You will eventually need to capture the heuristics and knowledge of the human trackers if you want to go further than just identifying animals from tracks.

That's enough for now. Comments anyone? Flames, brimstone, crickets chirping?

AutoTrackingTeam

11-22-2008, 10:54 AM

Thank you very much "Reiver" for taking me seriously ,
it's good that you have 30 years experience coz I've 0 one ;) and it would be a great help. I'm busy with examination now, but I'll be back in 1 to 2 days with further details and answers. I may PM for that.

wareagle69

11-22-2008, 11:14 AM

i could not track a herd of elephants thru my yard (but i can shoot them from a mile away) but heres my two cents worth every one by now should be familair with terry gant (or is it grant) mantracker to all others even he employes local guides to help him because from what i gather the terrain will move your quarry in different directions and tracking isn't just about following a track but in knowing where you quarry is heading

now i would be interested in tracking software as additional help for me. this is how i learn i read a book for a web page read it over and over till it is commited to memory (theory if you will) the i go out and apply what i have read (practical) then i can put the two together. but thats just me i never had any elders i could learn from i can from the streets to the bush and have taken it from there

Sarge47

11-22-2008, 01:25 PM

Sarge47

11-22-2008, 01:30 PM

How about "Troll-Tracking" Software?:confused::rolleyes::eek::cool:

crashdive123

11-22-2008, 02:27 PM

Just my opinion. This guy seems legit to me, or at least his questions seem serious. For somebody to come onto the forum and ask us a question in English when English is a second language the message may not come across as intended. If we can help him I think we ought to. If I am proven wrong.....big deal, maybe somebody else reading here will have learned something.

Riverrat

11-22-2008, 03:19 PM

I have done a bit of tracking, and one of the big things that I found is that the actual track is just a small part of tracking, you have to look all around and at everything in the area to follow an animal/human. Knowledge of the animal, also of the area you are in helps greatly in tracking. It takes patience and practice. This sounds like a data base of animal tracks, which when matched will give information about that specific animal...this may be of use if you are not sure what kind of animal you are dealing with. Could be wrong on this, and if I am ATT, let me know.

AutoTrackingTeam

11-22-2008, 03:48 PM

well, I think that I should have said that the initial idea is to make footprint identification software, and from that we may develop to tracking depending on the succeed of the initial idea.
one of the reasons why I'm postin here, is that we are not clear yet.. wither we should make it a database of animal tracks to identify the animal.. or should we focus on a certain one (which in this case won't be of great help unless to biologist and researchers) ..

by the way, we may go for the desert tracking (where the footprint has an identical rule as I've been told by a tracker).

anyway I can't give much details right now coz of the exams..

but thanks for trying to help.

Another topic::
Why all of this fuss about me being legit...!!!
Excuse me, but I'm really serious and won't waste my time and everybody's else asking such questions just to have fun. :(

Sorry if you did not get the idea .. but I think I've mentioned that I'm still at the beginning and nothing is clear yet.

Anyway, if my team decided to do the project, I'll keep u updated to the process. ;)

Peace :)

klkak

11-22-2008, 04:18 PM

C5) Remember: Hunters and animal trackers in the wild will all use a totally different approach to you as a programmer - think about that! Human hunters use a HEURISTIC approach, not ALGORITHMIC. What do I mean by that?

The term Heuristic seems to have two main usages:

1) Describing an approach to learning by trying without necessarily having an organized hypothesis or way of proving that the results proved or disproved the hypothesis. That is, "seat-of-the-pants" or "trial-by-error" learning.

2) Pertaining to the use of the general knowledge gained by experience, sometimes expressed as "using a rule-of-thumb." (However, heuristic knowledge can be applied to complex as well as simple everyday problems. Human chess players use a heuristic approach.)

C6) You will eventually need to capture the heuristics and knowledge of the human trackers if you want to go further than just identifying animals from tracks.

That's enough for now. Comments anyone? Flames, brimstone, crickets chirping?

That is what I was trying to say back in post #15. I am glad there are educated folks on here.:)

Sarge47

11-22-2008, 06:36 PM

Why all of this fuss about me being legit...!!!
Excuse me, but I'm really serious and won't waste my time and everybody's else asking such questions just to have fun. :(
...we have had a lot of problems from people coming out of your area; you know, Trolls, Spammers, & kids just playing games.:eek: I'll be keeping a close eye on you & if you ARE legit, then cool. :cool: If not, then 'bye-'bye.:eek: So far everything seems okay.:cool:

Rick

11-22-2008, 06:53 PM

To your question Laughing Beetle - RIPE.net is one of five regional internet registries that handles IP domains among other things. They are out of Amsterdam and a lot of spammers generate from that part of the world. The hair on the back of my neck stands up every time I see an IP coming through RIPE because some many of them ARE spammers. On my site, I've blocked all of the IPs that RIPE handles in an effort to keep spammers out. Made a huge difference too.

As for ATT, I think he's legit. It's just easy to become jaded with you see so many IPs come through RIPE and so many of them are spammers.

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yellowcab

04-24-2026, 11:32 PM

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yellowcab

04-24-2026, 11:33 PM

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