Does this flag bother you?

**sgtdraino** · 08-14-2008, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sam Reeves

Sgtdraino, yer my kind of guy. I like the way you use reason rather than rhetoric.

You may well find that I am a Master Debater.

**DOGMAN** · 08-14-2008, 02:24 AM

I never really thought of it as a symbol of racism. I think of it as the "rebel flag" basically anyone who wants to seperate themselves from the standard USA status quo mentality in a redneck sorta way.

On a side note, in my Civics class we were taught the Civil War was about slavery and economics- not race. Basically, the cotton industry and southern agriculture wasn't economically feasible without free/cheap labor. Wealthy Southern Landowners were willing to exploit anyone for a dollar. Northern spin doctors turned it into a race issue- southerners thought of it as an economic issue.

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 08:36 AM

[quote On a side note, in my Civics class we were taught the Civil War was about slavery and economics- not race. Basically, the cotton industry and southern agriculture wasn't economically feasible without free/cheap labor. Wealthy Southern Landowners were willing to exploit anyone for a dollar. Northern spin doctors turned it into a race issue- southerners thought of it as an economic issue.[/quote]

That would make it a race issue then wouldn't it, the slaves were black, although I agree it wasn't all about slavery. And those wealthy landowners were lazy, plain and simple. Force someone to do your work. But never forget a lot of societies have had slaves from the Egyptians to the Native Americans, Vikings to Romans and in colonial America indentured servitude was a crude form of slavery.
I'm not talking about what the flag stood for back during the civil war, I know it was a conferate battle flag and to me it is a part of our national history. But today it stands for racisim point blank. Not from the people in South such as those from here or just the good ole country boys from the south, but from the racist groups that use it like the kkk, neo-nazi's and others, sad fact it is now associated with them.

FUBU is just a clothing line, like everything that is supposed to be "cool" to the younger generation it died off some like every trend does. I have seen white kids, black kids, hispanic kids, and asian kids wearing FUBU, its just a clothing line like Sean John.

Sarge I agree, we need a clothing line for wilderness people.

**smokelessfire** · 08-14-2008, 08:58 AM

there's no such thing as a piece of fabric with a design on it and no meaning. if you believe that, sew a swastika on your shirt and walk around town. i dare ya. and another thing, i don't appreciate mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their OLD homeland dangling from the mirror of their cars. go home and dangle your flags. and NO, you are not a Blank-Hyphen-American. soon as you became a citizen(or snuck in here), you became an AMERICAN. you didn't come here because your old country was better, you came here because it sucked ***! don't insult the natives anymore!

**countybob** · 08-14-2008, 09:17 AM

The rebel flag as used today represents a rebelious philosophy ;against a government, against a different race or against anything else thats handy. By displaying a flag from the side that was defeated in a war are you proudly claiming to be some sort of a loser?

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by smokelessfire

there's no such thing as a piece of fabric with a design on it and no meaning. if you believe that, sew a swastika on your shirt and walk around town. i dare ya. and another thing, i don't appreciate mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their OLD homeland dangling from the mirror of their cars. go home and dangle your flags. and NO, you are not a Blank-Hyphen-American. soon as you became a citizen(or snuck in here), you became an AMERICAN. you didn't come here because your old country was better, you came here because it sucked ***! don't insult the natives anymore!

I am Irish American and I proudly dispaly the Irish flag (is that wrong, nope) which is no different than the mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their homeland in their cars or where ever, its pride in herittage. This country was founded by imigrants. And I did not insult the Native American's either.
Part of our rights as Americans is to display whatever we want, and make no mistake I never said you can't or shouldn't display the confederate flag, I asked does it bother anyone.

**bulrush** · 08-14-2008, 10:00 AM

Trying...hard...not to...bash...unions.

Unions had a good reason for existing back in the day. But today they just seem corrupt and inefficient. And I thought it was just the UAW in the "rust belt" (Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.) My ex-wife was highly pressured to be in the teacher's union. Basically, she was told it was REQUIRED that she was in the union, but there is no law requiring that. When we were married, we later tried to fight not to pay dues, but she was very fearful of her job if she didn't pay. So we paid.

You know why Delphi Automotive is still in negotiations with the union after 2+ years? The union wants something for nothing. They want stuff the company just cannot give. The union doesn't understand you can't get blood from a stone. Delphi has one of the best CEOs for turning around a company in trouble, however, he has never dealt with a union before, much less the UAW.

If Delphi gave the UAW their current demands, the company would be closed down in 2-3 years, and that is not a concern for the union. They want short term results (cash and insurance), not a long-term job.

Why should a high-school dropout get better wages than me who went into debt for a 4 year degree? It's not fair, but that's the way it is. I've seen older janitors in the union get $60,000 per year, and the company had to lay off salaried employees to keep paying him.

Ideally, one person is not inherently more valuable than another, but in a free market, value should be determined by your education and experience, not on your membership in a union. And companies shouldn't abuse their employees either, hourly or salaried.

**trax** · 08-14-2008, 11:06 AM

wow, well see how wrong someone can be when it comes to a symbol? I thought that fubu stood for *ucked up beyond use. I really did, apologies to the fubu company. So....that's pretty much the way it is with symbols I guess, people can be mistaken. It's too bad that when it comes to flags people have to invest so much emotion in them and use them as an excuse to run their own biases and prejudices (sometimes violently) against someone else.

Now everyone go have a nice glass of lemonade and chill out.

**DOGMAN** · 08-14-2008, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Beowulf65

That would make it a race issue then wouldn't it, the slaves were black, although I agree it wasn't all about slavery.

Again, back to my Civics class here....my teacher told us that there were other races that were slaves in the South- however, in low numbers.

Supposedly in the early days of the large scale southern agricultural industry people used Native Americans, Mexicans, and various Asians as slaves. However, none of those groups could compete with the slaves coming out of Africa when it came to working abilities in the hot southern conditions. Because of there abilities of laborers they became much more of a commodity than slaves of other ethnic groups, and in essence made the other slaves obsolete.

Is this true? I don't know- maybe my teacher had some sort of agenda that I've never thought about until now. Honestly, I never think about racism or the Civil War. Probably because it just isn't an issue here in Montana, because there are very few minority groups around.

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 11:47 AM

But plenty of militia groups... just kidding.
Actually racism doesn't come up much here either, just pops its head up every now and then. I just see people as people and judge them by how they act towards myself and others, what actions a person does speaks volumes. Words are just words and I let them go in one ear and out the other, as a cop I have been called so many names I can't remember how many, its the uniform they are angry at, not me just like here I take nothing personally.
Now I've had some African American's act like a-holes until they see a picture of my wife on my desk and then since I'm married to a black woman I suddenly become a cool cop. But if it calms them down then so be it, they still get the same charge and I just shake my head. But people are people, good and bad.

**Ole WV Coot** · 08-14-2008, 01:35 PM

Well I might as well finish what I started: I don't have a Confederate Flag, gggrandpa was in the 14th KY Infantry Volunteers, I am Scotch-Irish-Swedish probably Melungeon also, I have and still belong to the CWA-IBEW-UMWA. Except for Uncle Sam I have belonged to a union all my life. Before you decide on unions or Rednecks I suggest a little research on union organizing of coal miners in S. WV & E. KY. and living in a company town, being paid in "script" never money and could only be used at the "company store". Beo mentioned Harlan Co., KY, it was known as Bloody Harlan when I was young. Both my Dad & Grandpa worked in company towns, both were miners and I put in a summer before school. The flag doesn't bother me, never did. I worked in DC, Baltimore area for 15yrs and saw more racism there in DC with at that time 97% black. I was a minority, and overall minorities were worse towards each other than black & white I am not happy with one country, their people or culture but that's my problem. We all know what an opinion is like. I never crossed a picket line and never will. I will quit while I'm behind for awhile.

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 01:54 PM

Well Coot to be honest, I was born in Kingsville Texas in 65 and lived there for 5 years, my family moved then to Virginia (I was a navy brat) and lived there for all my life until about 10th grade and then we moved to Cincinnati, I went into the Army in 1983 and was stationed in Ft. Campbell Ky, which may as well be Tennessee cause 90% of the post is in Tennessee. Lived there until 1991 and came back to Ohio after Desert Storm and been here ever since. My Dads family is from Harlan Ky and across the boarder in Tennessee, my moms is from Virginia and Ohio. I'm Irish on my pops side and Irish/French on my moms. My wife thinks I get real hillybilly sometimes but then figures its the Irish in me coming out. I dunno I'm just me.

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 02:00 PM

Yeah Crash I was a Navy brat, my dad was in Vietnam, he did 3 tours in the Brown Water Navy as River Rat.

**trax** · 08-14-2008, 02:02 PM

Was his first tour in '64?

**crashdive123** · 08-14-2008, 02:03 PM

I've got a lot of respect for those river boat guys. Knew quite a few.

**trax** · 08-14-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by crashdive123

I've got a lot of respect for those river boat guys. Knew quite a few.

Yeah, that's what your Mom told me too.

**Beo** · 08-14-2008, 02:07 PM

Somewhere around there, he won't talk much about. He opens up a bit when we see stuff on the 1st gulf war and I comment, he'll then talk a littlt about vietnam.