training a dog for survival

[DOGMAN]

Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?

For me, its always a work in progress. I currently have 26 dogs, but I am always bringing in new dogs to my kennel to try out for my team- or to replace retired dogs etc...

The majority of the time my kennel is quite. My dogs were trained rather quickly (a couple of hours of this repetitive whenever they bark) but, I still have had a few others that didn't conform so easily. For them I use the bull whip technique.

The bullwhip technique is I walk out of the house/shop cracking the whip and either blowing the whistle, or saying "NO" in a growling voice...I walk swiftly toward the barker. I crack the whip right over there head, until they stop barking or retreat into their doghouse. I then say "NO" a couple of more times and crack the whip a couple of more times. If after a few minutes they decide to vocalize again, I go out and repeat, but I make sure the whip lightly stings them on a rear hip. After that- they seem to catch the drift.

All I have to do now is blow the whistle or open the door and crack the whip, and they get the message and get quite.

[Ridge Wolf]

Ok.. but I can't agree with your bull whip method... Thanks..

[DOGMAN]

Ok.. but I can't agree with you bull whip method... Thanks..

No worries, You don't have to agree. However, let me stress- I rarely have to pop a dog with the whip. It is used as a signal device. I will lightly sting a dog- once. If they are an incessant barker. It gets there attention- it holds there attention. It is much less painful to them than a shock collar. I have tested both an ecollar and a whip on myself- and the whip is a more gental solution. I do not beat my dogs- I love my dogs, but when you have as many of them as I do- you have to be the Alpha. Dogs are actually much harder on one another- than I am on them. I do not lose my cool, or take this kind of training lightly- it is a serious matter. If you have a better solution- I am all ears. Repectfully- Jason

[DOGMAN]

I would like to stress that I am a postive reward style of dog trainer. Incessant barking and dogs fighting are the only times I do any negative association training. Also, I would like to say that I do not speak for all mushers- so, if you have a negative opinion about my methods thats one thing...but, please don't think all mushers do it. I don't care if you have negative feelings about me, I just don't want to stigmitize the sport of mushing.

[Aurelius95]

I've read that some dog breeds, like beagles, for instance, can't help but to bark. It's in their genes. Montana, have you had success in getting all breeds of dogs to stop barking?

I've also heard that's why beagles make good rabbit and racoon dogs- they bark while they track them. Unlike a retriever that needs to be quiet in the blind until they go get the duck in the water.

I have no experience hunting, so this is just what I've read. I would appreciate any insight. Thanks!

[trax]

I've cleverly trained my dog to ignore any commands I give him and do what the h*** he wants, but just greet me at home with all the lovin' I can stand. (DAD!! You've been gone for at least 3 minutes! I missed you!!)

[remy]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

[DOGMAN]

I've read that some dog breeds, like beagles, for instance, can't help but to bark. It's in their genes. Montana, have you had success in getting all breeds of dogs to stop barking?

I've also heard that's why beagles make good rabbit and racoon dogs- they bark while they track them. Unlike a retriever that needs to be quiet in the blind until they go get the duck in the water.

I have no experience hunting, so this is just what I've read. I would appreciate any insight. Thanks!

I've never worked with Beagles...in reality...I have worked with very few breeds. Alaskan Huskies, German Shorthaired Pointers, Siberian Huskies, Malamutes, Pointers all respond well to this technique. However, these are running dogs, and in general quiter breeds and not territorial. They were never bred to be barkers.

Dogs that were bred to be territorial and guards, or dogs like hounds that sound off would be tough to train to be quiet. I wouldn't even try- I'd just get a different breed if I wanted a quiet dog. When a dog has been selectively bred for hundreds of generations for a certain behaviour (barking for instance) I wouldn't try "Training" it out of them- because it will be frustrating for the trainer, and for the dog. Training a dog bred to be a guard dog, to not bark, is like training a husky not to pull, or a pointer to not sniff.

Dogs are as specialized as tools. Trying to get them to do something, that is counterintuitive to their breeding is like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver. It can be done- but, it ain't going to be easy.

[trax]

Ridge wolf
The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

Then what did the ham have before they "cured" it?

[klkak]

Montana, I am familiar with sled dogs and the challenges of training and handling them. I don't see a problem with your method. Most people have no idea what is like to control more than 1 or 2 dogs let alone a dog yard with dozens of dogs. I know you have to be Alpha. That means always having a dominate energy and not letting one dog get away with insubordination. Dogs understand "Energy" and "Physical contact". I've seen what happens in a dog yard when the musher loses control.

[wildWoman]

Montana, I am familiar with sled dogs and the challenges of training and handling them. I don't see a problem with your method. Most people have no idea what is like to control more than 1 or 2 dogs let alone a dog yard with dozens of dogs. I know you have to be Alpha. That means always having a dominate energy and not letting one dog get away with insubordination. Dogs understand "Energy" and "Physical contact". I've seen what happens in a dog yard when the musher loses control.

How true. We have 4 dogs, and keeping tabs on them when out for walks in the bush is a whole different ball game than just going with one or two. More than 2 dogs seem to feel more like a pack and will be very tempted to go do their thing and ignore your commands if there's something their interested in. We have to be constantly alert and be ready to call them to heel as soon as the tails, ears and noses go up.
One of my dogs is a passionate moose chaser, which really ticks me off, and the only way I've been able to get him to come when he sees a moose taking off is by getting an electric collar for him (an expensive good one). Getting zapped jerks him out of hunting mode back into the real world and he comes immediately. I'd recommend that to anyone who has a dog with similar obnoxious passions. Keeps the dog out of trouble, you out of grey hair, and whatever he wants to chase in peace.

[Aurelius95]

Dogs that were bred to be territorial and guards, or dogs like hounds that sound off would be tough to train to be quiet. I wouldn't even try- I'd just get a different breed if I wanted a quiet dog. When a dog has been selectively bred for hundreds of generations for a certain behaviour (barking for instance) I wouldn't try "Training" it out of them- because it will be frustrating for the trainer, and for the dog. Training a dog bred to be a guard dog, to not bark, is like training a husky not to pull, or a pointer to not sniff.

Dogs are as specialized as tools. Trying to get them to do something, that is counterintuitive to their breeding is like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver. It can be done- but, it ain't going to be easy.

That's what I imagined the response to be, so thanks for confirming it. I just was cringing to hear a story of someone beating a dog to stop barking when that's the way the dog is wired.

[DOGMAN]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

Remy, I appreciate your critique and will do my best to explain my stance. First, I do believe "In wildness is the preservation of the world" However, Canis familiaris is not a wild animal. Much like ourselves, it is a domesticated pack animal- that is why we work so well together. Dogs and humans realized a long time ago that if we conform we survive- there is safety in numbers.

So, to be a part of a pack- there has to be rules. Even in the "wild" wolves have rules, and the young ones are brought up to conform to the rules of the pack. That is what my style of training is all about- letting dogs do whatever they want, while getting them to conform to the rules of the pack. I am the alpha and I take that position seriously. I strive to provide quality food, water, shelter, stimulation and structure to my pack so they lead contented lives and trust me and don’t feel the need to disrupt the hierarchy.

I am a positive rewards style dog trainer. 98% of my techniques are “positive” the dogs are just doing what comes natural to them. However the other 2% is training that enforces the rules of the pack. It is not cruel, wolves do the same thing- and in fact they can be much harsher in enforcing the rules of the pack than I am.

I look into my dogs eyes everyday, I read my dogs body postures everyday – I understand my dogs, because I strive to learn the lessons they have to teach me. So Remy, feel free to critique my words all you want. But, before you harsh on me too much, I’d say come to Montana and stay with me at my cabin, and see how my dogs and I interact first hand- Then pass judgment on my intelligence.

[beerrunner13]

Excellent points made WW I have trained Gaurd, hunting and a few SAR dogs and I am a firm believer in the shock collars. They are great aids for field dogs. Musher I aslo agree with you and you method, you are 100% corerect on enforceing the Alpha dog if you can't contol you dogs they are a danger to themselves and everyone around them, dispite what some people would have you think and that they can talk them to death.

I have a grayhound/lab mix that was very aggressive when I got him and he was a serious biter it took some rough handeling to teach him he was going to listen and that biteing was not OK he also is great in the woods and will retrive anything , but true to his sight hound half he would break and try to run down his prey, the only way I could stop this was with the electronic collar. He is a joy to take to the woods, is very protective of the horses and other stock and will protect the house and truck as well as my wife to the death, when I got him many people said he was a lost cause and should be put down[he was a rescue]. 6 years later he is a valued member of the family, so keep up with what works for you and pay no mind to the trolls who think animals are people and should be treated as such, they are pack animals and must be treated as such.

[remy]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

[Ridge Wolf]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

And my response to montana's post was not addressed to you now, was it? Montana knew what I meant with that word... I don't understand why you don't. Your use of my statement and followed by your explanation of it sounds a little off the wall and pointless remy..

[beerrunner13]

And my response to montana's post was not addressed to you now, was it? Montana knew what I meant with that word... I don't understand why you don't. Your use of my statement and followed by your explanation of it sounds a little off the wall and pointless remy..

Don't most of them? It is scarey how someone can type so much and say so little and never have a point or an answer.

[DOGMAN]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

Remy, tell me about your 11 dogs. What was the set-up...how did they all interact, what was your method of kennel/pack management. Help me overcome my shortcomings...I am willing to learn- but, please write in simple terms, as I am a simple person and have trouble following your eloquence.

[beerrunner13]

Remy, tell me about your 11 dogs. What was the set-up...how did they all interact, what was your method of kennel/pack management. Help me overcome my shortcomings...I am willing to learn- but, please write in simple terms, as I am a simple person and have trouble following your eloquence.

Montana don't hold your breath on that. I have never seen him answer a question period he will type a page or two for ya but all you will get is double talk and a run around, he judges but has done nothing by which he can be judged except use a lot of big words and and talk ya to deth you will learn in time. He is best ignored.

[grundle]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

I did not see any "rationalizations" or "justifications" from musher. He actually layed out exactly what he does without rationalizing anything. A rationalizing or justifying person would not say "I really dont' care what you think of me." Which by the way he said.

I suggest you stop talking around this issue, get off your "moral high horse" (pun intended) and stop pretending you are somehow better than him because you are some sort of hippyfied horse whisperer. You ought to try to Bear Whisper for a while too, and allow the bears to be wild as you are. You will learn (as they eat your face off) that wild and domesticated are too different quantities.

The "magical" intelligence that you want to pretend that exists is a myth that you need to pull out of your mind. There is no "oneness with the earth" that allows you to secretly communicate with animals if you just hum harder and louder than the rest. Your friend with the horses has merely spent a lot of time with those animals and understands their body language. That is as deep as it goes, no magic.

For someone who likes to use such big words I have never seen such a dumb argument. Please try again.