Beretta Pico and philosphy on micro guns?

**Phaedrus** · 11-14-2014, 06:08 AM

Has anyone here checked out the new Beretta Pico? I had a chance to fondle (but not shoot) one at the LGS this week. The Pico was announced two freakin' years ago but postponed again and again. I'd written it off as vaporware when out of the blue they started landing in stores. The gun is very new and I haven't heard any in depth reviews, and again being so new it's hard to make many judgements about reliability, etc. But I wanted to make a few comments just based on my initial impressions of the gun. First thing to note is that it's tiny! I mean really tiny. Laying it down next to an LCP it's a good 1/8th of an inch thinner at least. From what I've read it's the thinnest .380 on the US market if not the world. The next thing I noticed is that the sights are truly superb. And as with the Nano they appear to be user swappable with just an Allen wrench. Presumably the user will be able to add night sights in about five minutes. Sweet! That was one thing I love about my Nano. Subjectively I find that the Pico fits my hand better than the LCP. However the LCP has a better trigger.

On the minus side the mag and slide releases of the Pico are very hard to operate. A Pico owner over at Beretta forums says that this goes away pretty quickly as the gun breaks in but initially they're hard to operate. To me this isn't a very serious issue anyway. A gun like the Pico or LCP is going to be a BUG or holdout for most people, and a lot of folks don't even carry a spare mag for their BUG. After all, a BUG is a spare mag in a sense.

Again, I can't say one way or the other if it runs well. Initial reports are that it's finicky with cheap stuff like WWB but reliable with full power defensive ammo. Reportedly it was designed to work with +P ammo (bearing in mind that the whole idea of +P in the absence of a SAAMI spec is problematic). To this end it has dual recoil springs; being beefed up for high powered ammo perhaps makes it flaky with low powered stuff. But in my mind if it runs well with full power stuff I'd be happy. The .380 ACP is no powerhouse so I would use the stoutest stuff I can find.

This bring me to my philosophy re micro guns. I've had my CCW for over 25 years. In that time I've carried a variety of sidearms but most of the time it's been a service pistol sized gun (eg Browning Hi-Power, HK USP, HK P30S, Colt Commander). In recent years I've mixed it up and experimented with carrying smaller guns. In the summer I'll usually be toting my Beretta Nano, carried with the extended mag (8+1 with 147gr Federal HST). Occasionally I carry a Ruger LCR in .38 Special instead. Even so, when it's not sweltering hot I'll be carrying the P30S. That's the one thing I like about winter- it's easy to pack a full sized gun.

I think I'll pick up a Pico but I don't envision using a firearm like that as a primary CCW weapon. Sure, I suppose there will a day when I'm just running three blocks to get a carton of milk when I'll be tempted to drop a micro pistol in my pocket, but for the most part I view tiny guns like this as BUGs. To me the .38 Special is about the bottom end of the power spectrum I'm comfortable carrying as a primary. And while I understand that typical .38 Spec velocity isn't much higher than .380 ACP I think the ability to use wadcutter & semi-wadcutter rounds in a revolver mitigates this velocity deficit somewhat.

How do you folks feel about the .380 in general and micro guns specifically? Does anyone here CCW a tiny pistol like an LCP or Kel-Tec?

**Rick** · 11-14-2014, 07:45 AM

My EDC is a Kel-Tec PF9. I recently picked up a Bersa Combat .380. Yeah, I like them.

**Old Professor** · 11-14-2014, 08:05 AM

I am not a fan of the .380 or the standard .38 Special loads. I am a believer in the statement that self defense rounds begin with a 4. That said, arthritis in my hands has me now carrying an S&W Shield in 9mm as my EDC gun. Lots of good +P loads available for the 9mm today.

**kyratshooter** · 11-14-2014, 11:32 AM

I suppose a lot depends on ones definition of "concealed".

Some say it means no one can see the gun.

Others feel it means they will carry what they wish, it's no ones business and dare anyone to say anything about the obvious gun butt sticking out of their belt.

Mine includes a provision that I carry the gun every day, everywhere I can legally do so, and never want to be asked if I have a CCW for the weapon I am carrying unless I just fired the gun.

I am not a little guy at 5'10" and 220 pounds, but I can not conceal a full sized service pistol in summer weather, which pretty much dictates a "micro-pistol", if you wish to call it that, and further dictates a .380 caliber.

As for the 380 not being adequate ??? It is the most adequate round for the weapon I can conceal. Most adequate and ultimate being different, and the .380 acceptable.

I just switched from the P3at, which is summer wear, to the PF9, which matches my winter outfit. I have been trying out the P11 this year but find the thicker butt on the borderline of not really being comfortable in my preferred carry position. It is as thick as my .38 snubbies. The 11 round capacity is a nice touch though, and 6 rounds more than the .38. I might have to get used to it.

I do prefer the 9mm in winter due to the chances that my advisories might be wearing multiple layers of winter clothing and the penetration of the 9mm is a nice touch.

Now when I das a lad there were no truly small .380 pistols, and the only thing that came close to a compact 9mm was the Star BKS. A "micro pistol" was a .25acp Browning or Beretta Tomcat or Minx. Thank the Lord above that I can now buy a .380 that is the same size as the older model .25, and I can buy a 9mm that is smaller than the old model Walther, Beretta, Browning and Colt offerings in .32/.380.

As for magazine releases, sights and slide stops on deep concealment pistols, I find them useless. I do not intend to be engaging in a running gun battle at long range with my CCW gun. I do not anticipate a mag change or the need for a quick slide drop. It is going to be over when the mag is empty, probably with both of us wounded, or me standing there with a very shocked and perforated mugger looking up from the ground.

I also live in a state that has legal provision for carrying a weapon in one's vehicle. So I consider my CCW pistol and my vehicle defense pistol two separate weapons. I keep a full sized service pistol in the vehicle. My CCW pistol is for the trip from the vehicle to the structure I am visiting, or back to the vehicle. In my area most altercations, as rare as they, are either in a parking lot or in a vehicle.

**finallyME** · 11-14-2014, 12:40 PM

First, I am a complete NOOB when it comes to CCW. That being said, I like to learn. So, what do I think about the .380? At this point I question it. It is basically the same diameter as a 9mm, but with less power. I don't know, but I am guessing that a +P .380 is less powerful than a 9mm luger? If diameters are the same, why can't .380 pistol be the same size as a 9mm? I am guessing again, but it must be because of the power difference. If I can get a 9mm pistol that is smaller than the old .380s.......
As a BUG? I don't know, a .380 might make sense.

**kyratshooter** · 11-14-2014, 01:37 PM

Where did this term BUG come from?

Is it short for "bug out gun"?

Why not use the old BOG term that everyone is familiar with?

It's confusing me, at any rate, but I am easily distracted.

I have always seen a BOG as a firearm I would take when going into a known chancy situation, so I would want a full sized, full caliber pistol w/extra mags/ammo for that use.

My CCW is for instant and immediate unforeseen confrontations while "civilization" is still intact. I as yet do not consider my daily life as a continuous battle.

At least that is my vision for its presence.

That also has something to do with my environment, which is an open carry state with CCW only needed if one is truly concealing the firearm. We do not need CCW just to carry, its purpose is to carry concealed.

What we are getting into here is the same old .380 v 9mm battle when concealibility v power is the basic issue.

That takes in not only caliber and size of the pistol, but also body size, weight, clothing choices and whether one wears belt or suspenders!

It can not be dictated, mandated and finalized.

**finallyME** · 11-14-2014, 03:34 PM

Back Up Gun. At least that is what I think it means.

**hunter63** · 11-14-2014, 03:56 PM

BUG.......Never heard that one either..........

**Rick** · 11-14-2014, 03:59 PM

OLD F.A.R.T.s. What am I gonna do with you guys. Back Up Gun...BUG. For use when one is backing up.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ions-and-Terms

**hunter63** · 11-14-2014, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

OLD F.A.R.T.s. What am I gonna do with you guys. Back Up Gun...BUG. For use when one is backing up.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ions-and-Terms

Naw..... that would be one of them there 15 (or more) round 9mm's.....HAG....Hauling A$$, firing wildly over your shoulder....or the GTFOHG

I like the LCP, shoots pretty good, almost all 6 in a paper plate at 7 yards, fast..... and may or may not be in my pocket as we are typing....

**Phaedrus** · 11-15-2014, 02:39 AM

Sorry- yeah, BUG is back up gun. It certainly comes down to what you're comfortable with. There was a good stretch of years where I got complacent and didn't carry a gun at all, and I'm still alive. But I've been in the habit of CCW'ing for years now, and I almost feel naked going out and about unarmed. I live in SD and it's a "shall issue" state with regards to CCW and an OC state. That said I've never in my life ever seen anyone OC except on their own property (ranchers) or during hunting season. I'm a city guy and I'm sure a nakedly carried sidearm would get some unwanted attention. No knock on anyone that does OC but I'd rather no one know I'm armed. Printing badly is really no different than OC IMOHO. To me the idea is to be the "gray man" flying under the radar. The first clue that I'm armed should be me drawing my sidearm!

Again, it comes down to what you're comfortable with but I can't envision ever using a tiny little gun like an LCP or Pico as my primary/only CCW gun. It took a bit of soul search before I was even comfortable dropping down to my LCR with speed strips in my back pocket. The first rule of gunfighting is have a gun. So yeah, a micro .380 is better than nothing. But I'm not super confident in the ability of that round to be an effective fighting round, especially out of a very small gun. Small guns are harder to shoot well; they have a lot of subjective recoil and muzzle flip, they have a short sight radius and often don't give you much to hold onto. Practice and training mitigates this to a degree but all else being equal I'd rather have something bigger. However I think that in the Pico there are some Underwood loadings that I'd have a bit of confidence in. The hottest .380 can approach mild 9mm power.

I tend to dress in baggy T-shirts in the summer, and I'll usually be wearing an unbottoned shirt over that if it's not super hot. My style (or lack thereof, if truth be told) makes it pretty easy to conceal a reasonable sized gun. It's very easy to hide an LCR, and I'd have more confidence in that than I could in a micro auto. There are so many good small 9mms (eg Nano, LC9s, Shield, Bersa BP9CC, etc) that I can't imagine any reason to go down to a .380 for me. For a primary CCW, I mean. Obviously if you're body shape or clothing dictates another gun for you, that's fine. No knock on anyone if they choose to go smaller.

**Phaedrus** · 11-15-2014, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by finallyME

First, I am a complete NOOB when it comes to CCW. That being said, I like to learn. So, what do I think about the .380? At this point I question it. It is basically the same diameter as a 9mm, but with less power. I don't know, but I am guessing that a +P .380 is less powerful than a 9mm luger? If diameters are the same, why can't .380 pistol be the same size as a 9mm? I am guessing again, but it must be because of the power difference. If I can get a 9mm pistol that is smaller than the old .380s.......
As a BUG? I don't know, a .380 might make sense.

The .380 is sometimes called the 9mm Kurz (kurz is German for short). It's basically the same as a 9mm Parabellum but 2mm shorter. It has a smaller powder charge and couple with the shorter OAL vs the 9mm it's limited to lighter bullets. A further limitation of the .380 ACP is that there's not a recognized SAAMI spec for +P, so it's kind of crap shoot what the upper end of chamber pressure will be. All else being equal a gun chambered in .380 can be smaller than the same gun in 9mm. Modern manufacturing technology and the widespread adoption of polymer has resulted in a new breed of much smaller guns than the pistols of the mid 20th century. There's a practical limit as to how small a gun can be and still be usable; this is dictated by the human hand. The tiniest guns are already almost too small to get a decent grip on, especially for those of us with larger hands.

For the most part there's little reason to make a large .380 ACP. If you are going to have a gun as large as, say, a Glock 19 it might as well have 9mm power vs .380 power. The one good reason for larger .380's though is for places where civilians are barred from owning firearms of a military caliber (as if sometimes the case in Europe).

You're certainly right- my Beretta Nano is about the size of a Walther PPK and a bit lighter while packing a more powerful round.

**Eastree** · 11-15-2014, 09:03 PM

Phaedrus, I also carry a Nano.

Any way, my take on tiny handguns: Yes, a BUG is always relevant in my opinion, and it's not the only option. There are plenty of people who don't carry, even though they believe it is important to them, because of inconvenience, or living in a jurisdiction where concealing is mandated and printing is considered brandishing, or other such circumstances. A tiny pistol makes every one of those situations easier (as much as it is a compromise in capability).

Another reason I see fairly often is people in work situations -- whether it be someone in business casual or (for example) a utility company employee, and they need something that disappears in a pocket. Most of the people I see mentioning carrying as small a gun as they reasonably can always admit it is not about the capability of the round, but that it's more a "contact" gun they know is basically only effective at close range.

**Phaedrus** · 11-16-2014, 05:16 AM

Very true, Eastree. Any gun gives you an added option no matter what it is. Certainly a Pico or LCP would disappear in a pocket for situations where nothing larger could be concealed. Work in a non-permissive (but technically legal) environment would be one such situation.

**Rick** · 11-16-2014, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Eastree

a utility company employee

If we brought a weapon on company property it was grounds for immediate dismissal. I'm not saying it didn't happen but it was a rarity and they certainly put their livelihood at risk.

**hunter63** · 11-16-2014, 11:00 AM

Wisconsin CC law made a lot of people legal.........just saying.

Go into the hood at 2:00 A.M. on a "no heat call" then have to ask some one to move their crack pipe so you can work on the broken down unit......
Lots of tools in that bag.....

**Phaedrus** · 11-17-2014, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Rick

If we brought a weapon on company property it was grounds for immediate dismissal. I'm not saying it didn't happen but it was a rarity and they certainly put their livelihood at risk. [/COLOR]

That is a tough call. Losing your job would suck. Losing your life would be far far worse, though. I will always follow the law; the downsides are too severe to ignore. In my state employer policies and signs carry no force of law. If the handbook says you can't carry a firearm you could be fired for doing so but you would not have broken any law. I suppose it all comes down to risk management. I worked closing shift of a stop-and-rob I'd almost certainly take my chances being armed, job security be damned. But in my own job there's really no practical way to be armed or much need (relatively speaking).

**Rick** · 11-17-2014, 07:19 AM

Anytime you work in someone else's home you encounter just about anything you can think of. I went on a disconnect one time and the guy met me with a shotgun. Didn't disconnect that one but the police did get involved. Got called out on Christmas Eve because the folks were expecting an emergency phone call and they were out of service. Turns out the call was from Santa, everyone in the house was drunk including the kids. While I was there one woman picked up a knife and threatened to cut another woman's heart out. Exit, stage left. Dug up a dead body on a cut line report. Turned out to be a dog wrapped in a man's jacket. I got as far as the maggots in the sleeve and backed off. County cops dug the rest of it up. Yeah, I've been there but supporting my family was a lot more important to me than carrying a weapon on the job. All that was in Illinois so carrying was illegal to begin with.