an absolute must read

[wareagle69]

well i started looking at new properties today something a little further out than i am which is a little out there (literally and figuratively) something with at least 25 acres, i think that after all these yrs of planning to bug out, that i do not think it would be feasible hense my thread on a must read, so i am going to build a secret bunker on my new property and hopefully will be able to fare much better than b/o

[FVR]

The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.

I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.

Even in the USMC, when I thought something was not right, I voiced my concerns and had to make my own personal decision. These were sometimes good and yes, sometimes bad. I always stood tall and took what was coming to me, no complaints.

Sorry, I am not a sheep.

I have seen how this thread actually, the persoanality problems, how they affect the board and in reality, these are the same problems that a group of individuals would have if they "bugged out."

I see alot of ego's, mine included. I see how some interprit the statements made, how some take those statements to heart. I have noticed that some have thicker skins, some can take critism, and some joke.

Volwest is very well read, well his hobbies are psychology. Duhhhh. I do enjoy his threads as they do make you think where Sarge just asks really good but hard questions.

Totally enjoyable.

[wareagle69]

[QUOTE=FVR;4302]The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.

I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.

nothing unfortunate about it, if your right with it. i remember being 4 yrs old sitting in the sandbox all by myself looking around and saying this is the way it's always going to be. now it had guys that i cuold relate to in the rangers but i am still always alone even in a crowd. i have my wife and she is all that i need.

[FVR]

Exactly.

My wife and kids.

Acquaintances yes, put your life in their hands, not.

It is said that if you go through life and manage to have one "true" friend, you're lucky.

I've had that friend, once.

[wareagle69]

my wife is my only true friend thats why i am with her, she is the only person that i am glad to see, not much in common with most folks i guess which i why i enjoy coming here can at least talk tactics with some folks here, wonder if any of us would get along in real life though

[FVR]

I think that we could get along if we put all our cards on the table. If the fundamental idea's were the same and we respected each others place in the universe and accepted that, yeh.

[Sarge47]

I'm responding to several of you at once here. Yes, I do ask the hard questions. Like some of you, I was "alone" when growing up, though not by choice. I'm different, always have been, guess I always will be. I like people, however, & don't mind it when they disagree with me as long as they're honest and not condensending; you see, I want friends, not clones. I only ask for your respect, but weather you give it or not you'll always get mine, the amount depends on you. I feel sort of at home here as it's become pretty obvious that this group is like me, misfits in the world. Oh maybe not 24/7, but a lot of times. The world would look on people like us as "nut-balls", preparing for all that could happen. 2 1/2 years ago a semi crashed into the bus I was driving and all I got out of it were a few bruises and a whole bunch of tiny pieces of broken glass shoved into every uncovered open orifice exposed. It made me realize that I could be dead any time. Once that happens you get a whole new perspective on life. Death has surrounded me. My cousin who joined the Marines in '65 and went through a hell called Viet-Nam died 5 years ago as a result of drug & alcohol abuse. My wife's sister was brutally murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband in a horrible fashion. My middle brother's oldest child, his daughter, was killed in a bad traffic accident 6 weeks before her 18th birthday. And two months ago one of my best friends only about a year older than me who'd been the older brother I never had died of bone cancer. Go ahead and be yourselves. It's the one freedom nobody can take away from you, and if I don't like some of it, so what? At least I'm alive to read it. The question I have now is how can one conform in a group of non-conformists, isn't that a contradiction in
terms?

[owl_girl]

I'm responding to several of you at once here. Yes, I do ask the hard questions. Like some of you, I was "alone" when growing up, though not by choice. I'm different, always have been, guess I always will be. I like people, however, & don't mind it when they disagree with me as long as they're honest and not condensending; you see, I want friends, not clones. I only ask for your respect, but weather you give it or not you'll always get mine, the amount depends on you. I feel sort of at home here as it's become pretty obvious that this group is like me, misfits in the world. Oh maybe not 24/7, but a lot of times. The world would look on people like us as "nut-balls", preparing for all that could happen. 2 1/2 years ago a semi crashed into the bus I was driving and all I got out of it were a few bruises and a whole bunch of tiny pieces of broken glass shoved into every uncovered open orifice exposed. It made me realize that I could be dead any time. Once that happens you get a whole new perspective on life. Death has surrounded me. My cousin who joined the Marines in '65 and went through a hell called Viet-Nam died 5 years ago as a result of drug & alcohol abuse. My wife's sister was brutally murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband in a horrible fashion. My middle brother's oldest child, his daughter, was killed in a bad traffic accident 6 weeks before her 18th birthday. And two months ago one of my best friends only about a year older than me who'd been the older brother I never had died of bone cancer. Go ahead and be yourselves. It's the one freedom nobody can take away from you, and if I don't like some of it, so what? At least I'm alive to read it. The question I have now is how can one conform in a group of non-conformists, isn't that a contradiction in
terms?

I’m sorry to hear about all that. I cant say I’ve had a lot of people close to me die but people around here do keep killing themselves so that dos make it hard to fined friends.

About your question, I don’t know. Would you really want to conform to nonconformist?

[mangyhyena]

Great thread, folks.

I wouldn't choose to lead a group. I'd rather have someone else lead; take responsibility for the lives of those in the group. The only way I'd lead is if I were asked to lead and then only until they found someone else more suitable. I could see, maybe, leading at first until the group were stable, until the group was in a safer location and providing for themselves. After that I can't see where I'd be valuable as their leader.

I would not stay with a group that had a leader who I believed would get us killed. Adios. I'd slip out and wouldn't look back. On the other hand if the group's leader was competent and they were doing the right things to stay alive and safe I'd participate in whatever capacity was useful.

While I wouldn't want to lead the whole group I wouldn't be opposed to taking charge of certain tasks that needed doing. I do have a fair amount of knowledge about survival so I would suggest options to the leader or group. They could take or leave my suggestions as they saw fit. Again, if they're screwing up then I'm out of there. I'm not talking about something unimportant like how they start the camp fire (lighter or matches vs flint and steel) but if they're making big mistakes that could lead to our deaths and they wouldn't consider a suggestion I believe is important (like posting someone to guard the camp at night) then I'd slip out and not look back.

About fitting into a group: I work in a small print shop. The group is tight-knit. When I first got there I was a machine operator and to me, they were a bunch of aliens that didn't make any sense to me. I'm an introvert. Think Jimmy Paige vs Eddie Van Halen. (sp?) When I first got there I didn't even consider the importance of group dynamics or fitting in. As a result I was the sandpaper, causing friction. I didn't look for confrontations with them but I didn't go out of my way to avoid them, either. I figured that if they left me the hell alone we'd get along just fine. (Does that sound familiar to anyone here?)

So, eventually I learned enough about the business that I was given a lead position. Now instead of a piece of sandpaper I was a frigging grinder. lol. At that point I saw the importance of becoming a part of the group but didn't know how to go about accomplishing that. (I'm not the type to back down and let everyone walk on me. Just wouldn't ever happen; I'd rather die.)

Thankfully, my boss sent me off to management classes. Those classes were basically classes having a lot to do with psychology. I learned things about other people that made it much easier to deal with the people I work with. For instance, I learned that one of the older people I worked with is from a generation where the saying went, "If it's worth doing it's worth doing right." I learned that when I had something with loose tolerances that needed to be done fast he was not the man to go to with that. On the other hand if I had something with tight tolerances that needed to be done exactly right, he was the man for the job. I got along with him quite well once I learned that. Eventually I learned enough to get along with all of them.

Because I applied what I learned in those classes they promoted me again and now I'm a supervisor, making the majority of decisions in the shop. My boss is the one who is a liaison between the shop and sales/owners/CEO. I do enjoy it and I'm able to get along with them now. I'm still a loner at heart but I can adapt to and work within a group.

I found Volwest's posts interesting because I find psychology interesting and perhaps even vital after TSHTF. I saw that people asked what role Volwest saw himself in within a group. And I saw his answer. However, in the right circumstance I could easily see him as being the power behind the thrown; him making decisions for the group and having his words come out of the leader's mouth. LOL.

All I can say on this is that if you can't blend into a group then you're going to be on your own after TSHTF. On your own your chances of survival, in most cases, is limited. A group has a better chance of surviving than an individual, in general. (Always exceptions to this, of course.)

[Sarge47]

Great post Mangyhyena, however we're not talking about electing the President of the United States, but picking the right person to get everybody out as safely as possible. In a "perfect" situation you might be able to break off from the group but what if you can't? Remember where I wrote that the leader has to remain accountable to the group? If the group feels that the leader is not the right person to get them out then they need to replace him. And right now I'm vizulizing Vol West's words coming out of Trax's mouth, pretty funny!

[mangyhyena]

Hmmm. A situation where you couldn't leave could turn bad. As in your example of drifting in a life raft in the middle of the ocean. What if they were going to vote on who is going to become tomorrow night's dinner and you're the least popular person? Still going to try to get along with them? Or perhaps they decide that you don't need to eat as much as they do, or they decide you're not going to be drinking any of their fresh water. Perhaps they just want to take out their frustrations on you to relieve the boredom and maintain group cohesion at your expense. Are you going to take a beating or two, or worse, for the good of the group or are you going to put the hurting on whoever considers himself/herself the dominant leader?

However, two different situations have been covered here; short-term BO to a safer location and longer-term, stuck-in-a-life raft-with-nowhere-to-go where you can't leave. Both require different types of leadership with different skills. And both may require different choices about going it alone or blending into the group.

In a short-term situation then I'd say the choice of leader would not be an election. Someone would simply emerge as the one the others listened to. I know I'd be moving my family to safety and if anyone wanted to tag along then that would be fine. If they wanted to become leaders I'd leave them to it with a good-luck wish. Either way I wouldn't allow someone else to dictate my actions in that situation as I'm capable of leading my family to safety.

If in a situation where a group has decided to take your supplies and make decisions about where you're going then I'd say it's time for drastic measures to protect yourself and your family. Even if they will let you leave sans your supplies you've still got decisions to make. A night of blood could be in order at that point. Or perhaps you might decide to go ahead and leave without your supplies.

Just pointing out that surviving in a group isn't always the best option. I realize that fear is behind a few of these scenarios. Fear is a perfectly fine emotion when it's called for. I wouldn't approach the situation from a place of fear but if the situation proved to be one to rightly fear then I'd act accordingly. Being an "outsider" could easily prove to be dangerous in a group, especially if the situation were extremely bad. People do things they normally wouldn't do in society when survival is at stake. They make choices they wouldn't normally make.

[Sarge47]

Hmmm. A situation where you couldn't leave could turn bad. As in your example of drifting in a life raft in the middle of the ocean. What if they were going to vote on who is going to become tomorrow night's dinner and you're the least popular person? Still going to try to get along with them? Or perhaps they decide that you don't need to eat as much as they do, or they decide you're not going to be drinking any of their fresh water. Perhaps they just want to take out their frustrations on you to relieve the boredom and maintain group cohesion at your expense. Are you going to take a beating or two, or worse, for the good of the group or are you going to put the hurting on whoever considers himself/herself the dominant leader?

However, two different situations have been covered here; short-term BO to a safer location and longer-term, stuck-in-a-life raft-with-nowhere-to-go where you can't leave. Both require different types of leadership with different skills. And both may require different choices about going it alone or blending into the group.

In a short-term situation then I'd say the choice of leader would not be an election. Someone would simply emerge as the one the others listened to. I know I'd be moving my family to safety and if anyone wanted to tag along then that would be fine. If they wanted to become leaders I'd leave them to it with a good-luck wish. Either way I wouldn't allow someone else to dictate my actions in that situation as I'm capable of leading my family to safety.

If in a situation where a group has decided to take your supplies and make decisions about where you're going then I'd say it's time for drastic measures to protect yourself and your family. Even if they will let you leave sans your supplies you've still got decisions to make. A night of blood could be in order at that point. Or perhaps you might decide to go ahead and leave without your supplies.

Just pointing out that surviving in a group isn't always the best option. I realize that fear is behind a few of these scenarios. Fear is a perfectly fine emotion when it's called for. I wouldn't approach the situation from a place of fear but if the situation proved to be one to rightly fear then I'd act accordingly. Being an "outsider" could easily prove to be dangerous in a group, especially if the situation were extremely bad. People do things they normally wouldn't do in society when survival is at stake. They make choices they wouldn't normally make.

Great Post Ryan, however you might remember waaay back I said the group that would be the model is this group. Do you really think they would make those kind of decisions that would endanger you? I may be a bit naive, but I don't think so.

[ryaninmichigan]

There's always rock/paper/cisors...

I have lost buddies in the field, to "human error", or "poor leadership", as a sergeant it hit me pretty hard because somehow i felt responsible...i lost it mentally and went rogue. When they finally caught up to me they put me in jail to shut me up and calm me down.

In the cell next to mine was a foreign legion guy that had gone a bit over the top in a bar, and they had locked him up for a while until he went back to the forsaken place he crawled out off. We spent many days talking through the wall...and he was one of those charismatic individuals. He could manipulate anyone he touched, and before i knew it we were eating better than paris hilton on the sunset strip.

There is a certain hypnotic quality to a good leader...almost like a snake charmer, hypnotizing the deaf snake by the movement of his flute, and charming us passer byes with the sound of it.

In the end we are compelled to give whatever we have to offer, a coin, a meal, or our lives...and the responsibility of the leader is enormous, for it is not the gift in itself, but how this gift is used that matter.

No one tricks everyone. There are some out there that see through this. I am one of them. you can ber a pleasent as pie but if you don't know what you are talking about I am not listening.

[trax]

There is a certain hypnotic quality to a good leader...almost like a snake charmer, hypnotizing the deaf snake by the movement of his flute, and charming us passer byes with the sound of it.

In the end we are compelled to give whatever we have to offer, a coin, a meal, or our lives...and the responsibility of the leader is enormous, for it is not the gift in itself, but how this gift is used that matter.

I've known individuals almost exactly like what you're describing here volwest, and like the character you mentioned in the other thread, I know one who continually chooses to ignore his own ability and refuses to have leadership "thrust upon him" for want of a better phrase. More's the pity from my point of view because he seems to have all the other positive traits that people in here have basically suggested a leader should have. The man is very much a loner.

I have a good friend (different guy than the one I just mentioned)who is very much...well not a leader but say a spiritual role model to a lot of people around him. The other day I asked him if he gives much thought to how much influence he has, or can have on some people's lives. The conversation went like this:

him: "I try not to"

me: "think about it?"

him: "influence them."

[nell67]

Would I be out of line here to say that a leader NEEDS to be a loner? Able to do what needs to be done, to intruct and teach each of the members without being a friend,because if he/she befriends one or a few of the group ,but not everyone in the group then he/she sets himself up to be accused of favoritism even though the jobs he gives to his friends may be the jobs they are best suited for even if they are the easiest jobs which need to be done.If he doesnt make friends,or enemies within the group then there is a lot less chance of this being an issue, still going to ruffle some feathers here and there,because there is always going to be some who do not want to be told what to do.

Being the leader would indeed be a lonely job.

[wareagle69]

volwest.
i have already looked into the cotaiiners about 3 to 5 grand up here but i do like the idea every one around here uses them for storage on their property

[trax]

No one tricks everyone. There are some out there that see through this. I am one of them. you can ber a pleasent as pie but if you don't know what you are talking about I am not listening.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my sense has been that the people around the individuals that volwest was describing wanted leadership, again just my personal observation. Also, I think the important part of volwest's message was "it is not the gift ....but how the gift is used"

In that I just mean, volwest's description might seem like "leaders" are by nature very manipulative and that is not always the case (although it often is, I have no doubt)

[ryaninmichigan]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my sense has been that the people around the individuals that volwest was describing wanted leadership, again just my personal observation. Also, I think the important part of volwest's message was "it is not the gift ....but how the gift is used"

In that I just mean, volwest's description might seem like "leaders" are by nature very manipulative and that is not always the case (although it often is, I have no doubt)

I understand. I guess I have always been the tyoe of person do move into the role because no one else will. Sometimes you have to lead purely because no one else will. I don't care much for slick talkers I see the BS and it makes me sick when I see sheepel following along

[ryaninmichigan]

i am the master of my destiny. bottom line. I understand where you are going. I am not one of them. I make my own money and awnser to no one other then me.... so sheep elephants not me. you read to much,,,

[wareagle69]

you think far to much of your self youngster.