Kel-Tec SU-16B for a first-time 5.56 rifle?

[GreatUsername]

Hello again, with another entry from what appears to be my new Kel-Tec addiction (OMGWTFBBQ KSG!!! <--- me a few months ago)

I'm getting to the point where my meager collection of two .22lr bolt actions and one fowling shotgun is fun and all, but I'm wanting to get a better rifle or carbine for self-defense (and/or hunting?), but on my college student budget, I can't afford mainstream prices. Therefore, I had to abandon hope (for now) of getting most AR-15 variants, a Tavor SAR, or any lever-actions in the calibers I wanted. Tightening my belt, I've turned once again to Kel-Tec, and I have to say that I like what I'm seeing, but would like some second opinions.

At first I wanted the SUB-2000, the fold-in-half 9mm/.40sw carbine (I'd go for the 9mm, myself) because I want a 9mm handgun someday, and this carbine can take glock, barretta, s&w, or sig pistol mags, depending on preferred configuration, but then I realized that though I'd be buying it for use as a rifle, my age may not allow me access to 9mm because it's "handgun ammo" and being in the "you're an adult, but not quite" range of 18-20, I'm disqualified. Does anyone know if I would be okay, so long as it's clearly for my rifle? .22lr is often a handgun round, but no one seems to complain about that here (when I can find it) but 9mm is clearly rarer in longarms. Remember, I live in the Seattle area, so it's a gun-tollerant environment, not super anti-gun, but certainly not gun-friendly either. Thoughts on purchasing 9mm?

Anyways, the one I'm REALLY excited about and probably going to get when I have the money, even though it costs a little more than the SUB-2000, is an SU-16B. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/su-16b/rifle/ The price-tag is still less than almost all AR-variants I've seen online, and yet has reputedly "mini-14 accuracy" which is good enough for me. It also folds its stock under, and the foregrip is a built in bi-pod (yes, I know, it's flimsy as H'e11, but it's also not a huge deal for me as I don't usually use bipods anyways) and when compacted down it is a comfortable two feet long, which is not as good as the SUB-2000's closed length of 16" but it will do. The effective range is (based off youtube demonstrations) up to 400 yds for a competent shooter, and the sights on the "B" model are better than the "A" that came before. Why not the other models? Well, I like the stock on the A and B better, as it looks and reportedly feels more sturdy, and it also houses additional magazines/one additional pmag. The B is also the second cheapest model, and has a longer sight-radius than the more popular C model, and I'm not going to afford an SBR permit, so the D models are out. The CA model is CA-compliant, 'nuff said. B is my best choice from this line.

At 4.5 lbs unloaded, that's a sweet little black-gun. I know that there are AR and AK variants that are cheapish, but this so far appears to be my best option, unless the SUB-2000 is not going to be an ammo-purchase headache for me (I know it's not in the same class as a 5.56 carbine, but I'd rather pay 20 cents per shot instead of 50, so long as it's legal)

Your thoughts, oh wise ones?

[crashdive123]

If hunting is in your cards - there are much better and less expensive options.

[Rick]

The same is true for self defense.

I have the Sub-2000 in .9mm with the Glock 19 handgrip and my EDC is a Kel-Tec PF9. The only issue I've ever had was with the PF9 when it was new. I had a couple of rounds that didn't feed correctly in the first 100 rounds but no problem since and never a problem with the Sub-2000.

I have an AR-15 but I didn't buy it for hunting or self defense. I bought it because I wanted it, which is probably why a lot of folks buy them.

Have you considered used weapons? You can find excellent used weapons if you look around and are patient. Most of them are not shot to pieces. Sometimes gun shops get in estate guns that have been well taken care of and shot very little. You wind up with a like new weapon for a used weapon price. Lord knows my Mosins were no where near new but they shoot just fine.

[hunter63]

Judging by the options presented looks like you are wanting a EBR?, for self defense?

9mm is a very poor hunting round, so I guess you need to look at your priorities, and make you decision based on your use.

Personally I would cover any hunting needs first, if you have the desire or need,... then head into the EBR world when finances permit.

As far a specific makes and models, can't comment as auto loaders are not on my must have list...got a few for "just because", but do not consider them high on any list.

My list:
Shotgun 12 or 20 ga (any)
.22 (any)
Scoped long shooter .243 up to .30 cal (any)
.38/357 wheel gun prefer S&W or Ruger
.62 cal smooth bore flint lock

Everything else comes after the basics and is "just because I want one", and are fun to shoot.

JMHO

[GreatUsername]

Hunting is not much of a consideration for me actually. I'm looking mainly at self-defense/wrol in a city environment, and the ability to hunt is more in an emergency and/or pest-control capacity. I'm not really into hunting just for the fun of it, and recognize that there are some cheaper, better, higher-caliber bolt-actions and single shots that would better fit the bill for that.

[hunter63]

Well seems your mind is made up, you are just working out the details.............

[Rick]

Remember too that 5.56 in a defense role will go through walls. In most cases you are talking about sheetrock, greenboard and some kind of siding like aluminum or vinal. 5.56 will skate right through it and you might wind up shooting someone you never intended to whether you are inside or outside when you pull the trigger if you happen to miss your target.

[GreatUsername]

Remember too that 5.56 in a defense role will go through walls. In most cases you are talking about sheetrock, greenboard and some kind of siding like aluminum or vinal. 5.56 will skate right through it and you might wind up shooting someone you never intended to whether you are inside or outside when you pull the trigger if you happen to miss your target.

Good point, that's a factor in favor of the SUB-2000 and 9mm then. A question unrelated to the OP, but something I've wondered about for a while: how good are rock-salt shells for shotguns? My thinking here is to either have a "normal" pump-action loaded with two rounds of salt before upping to metal shot, or to get the KSG when I have the money and load one magazine tube with rock-salt, and the other with more lethal stuff. Is rock-salt a better option for not punching through walls? Is it effective enough that you would recommend it?

[Rick]

I don't know if .9mm would be better than 5.56 or not. Someone smarter than me will have to answer that. My understanding is 5.56 tends to tumble so wall penetration might actually be less than a .9mm.

Does anyone know of a chart comparing wall penetration to stopping power?

I'm not much on non-lethal rounds if it's a self defense situation. I'm not going to use my EDC unless I truly have to but if I do I want to know that it will put the bad guy down and he stays down. I don't want to just pizz him off.

On the rock salt, I know of a farmer that used a combination of rock salt and cut up soybeans to discourage watermelon theft. The rock salt was bad but the soybeans absorb body fluids and swell. Yeah, not pretty.

[Rick]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

[Rick]

Oh, one other thing to mention is that shooting inside is not going to be good on your eardrums. You'll probably be saying "What?!" a lot over the next couple of days.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

JMO, Black guns attract attention, that is if your not looking for attention.

[GreatUsername]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Aaaaaaaand nevermind the gun for self-defense inside my apartment, a baseball bat is the only ethical thing, where my neighbors are considered. That, or maybe a bow....

(granted, I was aiming more for a BOG or a BIG or something of that sort, plus something that would be fun to plink with, but I think now I'm going for "fun to plink with" and nothing else. Shooting through 6 walls is silly. I'm not going to want to shoot anywhere in a city (especially indoors) when there are thin walls with people behind them everywhere. Guns are for rural areas O_o )

[hunter63]

..............................I'm not much on non-lethal rounds if it's a self defense situation. I'm not going to use my EDC unless I truly have to but if I do I want to know that it will put the bad guy down and he stays down. I don't want to just pizz him off.

On the rock salt, I know of a farmer that used a combination of rock salt and cut up soybeans to discourage watermelon theft. The rock salt was bad but the soybeans absorb body fluids and swell. Yeah, not pretty.

I know that farmer....and it does hurt.
On a lighter note...If I shoot, they better go down, and stay down.....Not gonna fool with non-lethal stuff in my house.

[GreatUsername]

I know that farmer....and it does hurt.
On a lighter note...If I shoot, they better go down, and stay down.....Not gonna fool with non-lethal stuff in my house.

Ah, but will you fool with lethal stuff in your house, your neighbor's house, the road and cars behind that house, and the house across the street?

I'm sorry, I'm just a little freaked out about how much behind-target damage potential a bullet has. How can one plan to use a gun ethically without endangering their community?
^that's not a cynical rhetorical question, what can be done in order to make one's use of a firearm for self-defense justafiable, in regards to not putting your neighbors or others in your home at risk?

[hunter63]

That's why its a shot gun with bird shot........

[crashdive123]

Ah, but will you fool with lethal stuff in your house, your neighbor's house, the road and cars behind that house, and the house across the street?

I'm sorry, I'm just a little freaked out about how much behind-target damage potential a bullet has. How can one plan to use a gun ethically without endangering their community?
^that's not a cynical rhetorical question, what can be done in order to make one's use of a firearm for self-defense justafiable, in regards to not putting your neighbors or others in your home at risk?

Use Glaser Safety Slugs in your handgun or some other type of frangible ammunition. Still lethal, but will not over penetrate.

[Phaedrus]

An entry level EBR is about the same price as the Kel-Tec. I've read good stuff about the KT, but I haven't seen one in person. Here's a crazy idea...do you have a Wal-Mart in your area? Ours have Windham M4-geries for around $800 and DPMS rifles starting at $650. WM does layaway too, for the holidays.

[GreatUsername]

Dunno about you guys, but in my area EBRs are generally around $1000, with only the low-end ones being down around $800. Granted, I don't know what a KT goes for here, but EBRs are generally more expensive in the Seattle area (or western WA in general) than some places elsewhere in the country. Meh... I can't buy one for a while anyways.

If some of you guys are wondering why I want one now and don't want to save up for a better one like a Ruger SR556, it's simply as a stopgap measure. Someday I can afford the nice things, the Tavor being my goal. But for now, I want SOME EBR before the prices rise further, and legal restrictions tighten.

Layaway would be cool, but no WM has anything remotely tactical/military-style here whatsoever, they sell only hunting rifles and fowling shotguns. Anything tactical can only be gotten from gun-stores, because people here aren't as comfortable with them.

The one Wal-Mart I know of here that has a firearms section usually has eight longarms available at any given time, and 5000 rounds of ammo total. Pretty sparse, as I imagine most of you guys on this forum have a bigger inventory than this WM. Different culture, different place.

[Rick]

If and when you do look for the EBR look at Rock River Arms. A smart fellah once put me on to them and I've never regretted the purchase. At the time they had three or four versions of the Operator.

http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?f...ategory_id=213