The Wussification of America

[Winter]

Here's the thing though.

Since toy guns have been frowned upon, starting in the 80, kids have become worse.

While you do have a pretty good argument, reality has not played out your theory well.

Reading was done on rainy days.

[welderguy]

And with toy guns, my childhood would been empty. I would have spent all my time in wargames and other pursuits rather than reading or experimenting with tinkering in my garage. I'm not saying toy guns are dangerous for all kids to have, but having coached young shooters for years now, the lack of respect the new ones have for firearms can be astounding, and the biggest offenders in my experience are the ones who played with toy guns and violent videogames at too young an age. For the amount of benefit playing with toy guns gives, I don't think it's worth the risk of kids not respecting real firearms. It's been proven that the Eddie Eagle program from the NRA doesn't work on kids who have been exposed to toy guns and virtual violence. There was a study in WA about whether or not it worked, and they found that a shocking number of the kids (6 and younger), when in a room with a (firing pin removed) firearm would not only touch and handle it in spite of just having recieved safety instruction, they would put their fingers on the triggers, point the muzzle at their faces or bodies, and do things that might have gotten them killed if the gun was operable and loaded.

It's not wussification to make a kid's play less violent, it's like wearing seatbelts. You wouldn't let your kids be blazé about wearing those, so I personally don't want my kids to someday have any chance of treating real guns like toys. It's exactly the "they're boys, they need to have wargames" argument that let the boy who killed my cousin with an accidental discharge forget his healthy aversion to pointing gun-shaped objects at people. He thought it was a cap-gun. He was wrong. My cousin died because of it, and he was 7.

Let them shoot guns. That makes sense. Let them read books. That makes sense. Let them never point a gun, real or imaginary, at another human being unless they truly intend to kill that human being in self-defense. That makes sense. You CAN keep a kid from making toy guns with legos, and keep them from playing violent games or watching violent movies, until such time as they are developmentally ready to tell the difference 100% of the time. Guns aren't kid's toys, in my opinion.

To each their own of course, but just my $0.02

So its just toy guns and video games that promote unsafe gun handling? not TV, or the news, or bad press pictures of police or military doing unsafe things. So lets say a child that never plays with toy guns but spends more time reading is better off, HMMMM what if there reading about making bombs, or cyber hacking, or making drugs? What it boils down to is parental involvement. You wouldnt hand over the keys to a 1 ton truck to a 16 year old with no instructions or safty lessons, why do it with a toy gun.
I am very sorry to hear of your lose. But would you feel the same had he died from an auto accident about cars as you do about toy guns?

[Ken]

And with toy guns, my childhood would been empty. I would have spent all my time in wargames and other pursuits rather than reading or experimenting with tinkering in my garage.

And with toy guns, my childhood was anything but empty. I played endless war games and games of cops and robbers just like ALL of the other kids I knew. I also learned how to plot a course on a chart, to pilot a boat across open water, to plant a garden, to build a tree house and a fort in the woods, to tie several dozen types of knots, to disassemble a bike in its entirety and reassemble it correctly, to use a wide assortment of power tools, to tear down a small engine, to change oil and tune up a car, to build a Heathkit television from scratch, to deliver a speech, to fire a shotgun, to prepare several different meals, to practice first aid, to swim and scuba dive, to wire a circuit, to drive a pick-up truck, to ride a motorcycle, and to write business and thank you letters. And I learned all of this well before I turned 15, most of it between our regular games of cops and robbers.

[Sarge47]

Like most on here I LOVED playing with toy guns! Hubley toys made the best ones! I played Army/Marines, Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers, and even Davy Crockett! When I was 12 my folks moved me to Chicago where I learned how to make a gun from a long stick of wood, rubber-bands, and clothes pins that would fire bottle caps from soda-pop bottles. Since the edges were sharp we often nicked each other...it was great fun. There were some weird kids that made zip-guns using car antennas that would fire a .22 round...hopefully. And one young nut-job took a cast-iron potato gun and beat a bunch of kittens to death with them. He was a real problem child and last I heard he was spending a lot of time in the lovely jails of Chicago. However, never did I want to shoot anybody for real, it was all play-acting. It is my opinion that the kids who would grow up and abusing firearms were never taught the proper values to begin with. All that being said I've got a few toy guns I'll sell if the price is right!....

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.I owned one of these back when I was a kid. Best toy gun ever made...and for only 5 bucks as well! Hubley was great!

[Sarge47]

Anybody remember the "Fanner 50?"

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Also, if you click on this link and scroll down to the model M-23 you'll see my favorite toy rifle.

http://user.pa.net/~the.macs/PMTOYa.html ....

[Ken]

Anybody remember the "Fanner 50?"

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Also, if you click on this link and scroll down to the model M-23 you'll see my favorite toy rifle.

http://user.pa.net/~the.macs/PMTOYa.html ....

You still carry that one?

[Sarge47]

You still carry that one?

(deep sigh) No, wish I did though. With what they're worth today I could probably trade one for a 1911 .45 even up!

[crashdive123]

I'd REALLY like to see the data and how the study was conducted where you drew this comment from.

It's been proven that the Eddie Eagle program from the NRA doesn't work on kids who have been exposed to toy guns and virtual violence. There was a study in WA about whether or not it worked, and they found that a shocking number of the kids (6 and younger), when in a room with a (firing pin removed) firearm would not only touch and handle it in spite of just having recieved safety instruction, they would put their fingers on the triggers, point the muzzle at their faces or bodies, and do things that might have gotten them killed if the gun was operable and loaded.

[Ken]

I'd REALLY like to see the data and how the study was conducted where you drew this comment from.

"Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, you aren't entitled to your own set of facts." (GreatUsername's signature)

[randyt]

there is so much I would like to say but I fear the wrath of Crash, must not delve into politics but it's obvious to see the wussification. More clearer now than ever before.

I want to add that if a kid don't know the difference between a toy and a non-toy there is a very serious parenting problem going on.

[Ken]

there is so much I would like to say but I fear the wrath of Crash, must not delve into politics but it's obvious to see the wussification. More clearer now than ever before.

Don't just sit there, dammit! SAY IT!

[welderguy]

there is so much i would like to say but i fear the wrath of crash, must not delve into politics but it's obvious to see the wussification. More clearer now than ever before.

I want to add that if a kid don't know the difference between a toy and a non-toy there is a very serious parenting problem going on.

bingo !!!!!

[finallyME]

Wait til he gets good with Lego... Winnie jnr made a pretty good copy of a sniper rifle, tommy gun, and several generic handuns. He was the 'go-to' guy for lego stuff at school. I've no doubt if he did that at school now, he'd be in counselling quicker than you could say open fire! And no he didn't turn into a raging homicidal maniac with a firearms obsession, or a gun dealer.

Folks should try and remember what it's like to be a child, not try and make the poor Bu$$ers small adults before they've grown.

Yep, he uses legos to make guns as well. Along with his two older brothers. The oldest (10) spends his time making tanks. Guns aren't as powerful.

[GreatUsername]

I'd REALLY like to see the data and how the study was conducted where you drew this comment from.

Granted, it was an anti-gun organization that was purveying it, but the study was conducted by these guys: http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/

And they gave a seminar about the results at UW. You might claim they were baldface lying, but I don't think so. The other statistics they put out, while given without context, are all technically correct.

[welderguy]

Yep, he uses legos to make guns as well. Along with his two older brothers. The oldest (10) spends his time making tanks. Guns aren't as powerful.

He needs one of these ......Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

Takes care of them lego and washing machine box tanks too.

[Ken]

Granted, it was an anti-gun organization that was purveying it, but the study was conducted by these guys: http://www.washingtonceasefire.org/

And they gave a seminar about the results at UW. You might claim they were baldface lying, but I don't think so. The other statistics they put out, while given without context, are all technically correct.

First, can you provide a link to the study, including the complete methodology of the study?

Second, can they support the bullsh!t claim on the side of this bus?

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[randyt]

Don't just sit there, dammit! SAY IT!

That's easy for you to say, you're a lawyer and can talk your way out of anything. Probably prefer a good donnybrooking too LOL.

[Ken]

That's easy for you to say, you're a lawyer and can talk your way out of anything. Probably prefer a good donnybrooking too LOL.

I'll represent you in this thread. For free.

[GreatUsername]

First, can you provide a link to the study, including the complete methodology of the study?

Second, can they support the bullsh!t claim on the side of this bus?

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The study was presented as a seminar a year ago. I'll see if I can dig up a link, but they never gave me a link before, the information I saw was presented by a speaker.

as far as that claim on the bus: "During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."

source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

obviously not the same study that ceasefire used, since the numbers don't line up exactly, but that's 22 "undesirable" shootings for every "justifiable" one. Granted, they lack context: many of those guns in the home were owned or purchased for the premeditated purpose of committing crimes or for suicide. But the ratio presented isn't too outlandish.

[Ken]

That study has a sample size of THREE. The criteria examined is utterly biased. Its statistical validity is near zero.