Great documentary: "Guns, Germs, and Steel"

**Rick** · 03-27-2008, 09:01 AM

Hellooooooo. Sitting around vs. running for your life? Huh? Sort of Neanderthal couch potato kind of a thing.

**trax** · 03-27-2008, 10:56 AM

no no no, little one, sit up and pay attention to papa. The bronze spear tips for killing bunnies? If I was doing fine with stone tips before, what odds? Reminds me of one of the early chapters in the book Chesapeake by Michener. European traders are dazzling the local Indians with trade goods and the chief is holding back. One of the traders offers him a compass that's described as all ivory and inlaid gold. The chief allows that its a very attractive piece but isn't terribly interested in it. The interpreter says something like "but Great Chief, with this device you'll always know which way north is"

The Chief replies, "I already know which way north is."

Technological advances seem, at times, to create a "brain drain"....

**Alpine_Sapper** · 03-27-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by trax

no no no, little one, sit up and pay attention to papa. The bronze spear tips for killing bunnies? If I was doing fine with stone tips before, what odds? Reminds me of one of the early chapters in the book Chesapeake by Michener. European traders are dazzling the local Indians with trade goods and the chief is holding back. One of the traders offers him a compass that's described as all ivory and inlaid gold. The chief allows that its a very attractive piece but isn't terribly interested in it. The interpreter says something like "but Great Chief, with this device you'll always know which way north is"

The Chief replies, "I already know which way north is."

Technological advances seem, at times, to create a "brain drain"....

bronce trumped stone for weapons, but not because of weapons. IIRC, it was the armor factor for bronze that eventually caused weapons and armor to migrate there, because, ya know, bronze is just so much better than a deer hide at stopping that stone tipped arrow the canadians were launching.

**trax** · 03-27-2008, 04:10 PM

So, according to that rationale, Mr. Sapper, getting better at killing ourselves and each other off in large groups is one of our civilized or societal advances?

**Alpine_Sapper** · 03-27-2008, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by trax

So, according to that rationale, Mr. Sapper, getting better at killing ourselves and each other off in large groups is one of our civilized or societal advances?

Warfare and conquest is what has dominated society in one form or another, and caused most of the major technological advances, no? Who pays for the tech? Certainly not the scientists creating it. How many of those grants come from private industry?
I'm just saying that the improvement in armor had a lot to do with moving from stone/bone/wood to bronze. Although, weapons that hold an better edge longer and don't break as often didn't really hurt. Who do we have to blame for quite a bit of our early technological advances? One of the bloodiest tribes on earth, the Romans, right? Whether they created it, or killed the people who did and assimilated it, weren't they one of the society's that defined civilization? The only thing they cared about with technology was war. And they used it to exert their influence over a significant portion of the globe, so obviously the strategy was working for a while.

**Alpine_Sapper** · 03-27-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by trax

So, according to that rationale, Mr. Sapper, getting better at killing ourselves and each other off in large groups is one of our civilized or societal advances?

Oh, and to answer the question, societal.

**trax** · 03-27-2008, 05:08 PM

My question is what makes it an advance? Moving forward connotes improving or getting better or accomplishing something positive to me, so large bloodthirsty groups killing each other off, whether it be with rocks or nukes, is not an advance IMHO>

**Alpine_Sapper** · 03-27-2008, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by trax

My question is what makes it an advance? Moving forward connotes improving or getting better or accomplishing something positive to me, so large bloodthirsty groups killing each other off, whether it be with rocks or nukes, is not an advance IMHO>

I believe it qualifies as an advance in the realm of a tool. As far as the whole stone vs. bronze thing goes, as a hunter in peace time, a tool that allows you to feed the tribe more effectively is an advance. Since there's not a clear definition between hunter and soldier in a lot of civilizations, In times of war, well, you're just hunting different targets.

besides, without most of these advances, the average lifespan was what, 30, maybe 35 years? Most of us would not be here to leave a mark on these cave walls.

**trax** · 03-28-2008, 12:38 PM

OK, two things. I think that we've come to perceive as a society that all advances are positive and growth is always a good thing. As Edward Abbey once said, 'growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell' We certainly seem to think that way for anything that makes life easier for us.
I just don't know that we're always right, I can certainly understand the points being made here.

Second thing, I always know which way north is. Or, I should say, I haven't been wrong about that yet.

**Rick** · 03-28-2008, 12:40 PM

Psssssst, Trax. Turn around....the other way. That's north (pointing).

**trax** · 03-28-2008, 12:50 PM

Soon as I hear that from Rick, I know I'm headed in the right direction, but careful now Richard, you could be accused of hijacking clowning around on the thread like that..

**Rick** · 03-28-2008, 01:03 PM

My poor wife is directionally challenged. I've told her that she should figure out which way she needs to go then go in the opposite direction. She's a very bright lady but couldn't find the opening of a paper bag if she was inside it.

**bulrush** · 03-28-2008, 01:56 PM

If you think the Indian was is the best, don't forget the American Indians fought with each other frequently, as supported by the white man's history, and the indian's history themselves. Although I think it was Lewis and Clark who reported the Lakota were one of the most peaceful tribes they encountered.