Coast Guard Helicopter to floundering fishing boat.
"Sea Fish this is Coast Guard One on site. Will this be Check or Credit Card?"
"We're taking on water here!"
"I understand but we have to settle up before we can send the basket down. Now, check or credit card?"
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
What Daniel Boone's sign might have said........
"D. Boon paid for SAR under tree in the year 1760"
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Perhaps it's under reported because, A. most of them would prefer to rough it out in a five star Caribbean resort and B. they don't even come close to the good ol' boys who tend to overestimate their skill level just because they carry a survival knife.Originally Posted by Old Professor
Here's how I think it should work......in an ideal Crash world.
If you need search and rescue, they respond. Those that needed it and are able make a nice donation to help fund operations would do so out of a sense of gratitude.
Of all of the places that my tax money is spent, this is one area that I do not have a problem with. To me, it would be a sad day when some "official" determines if your are qualified and prepared enough to enjoy the beauty of the wilderness. We should be encouraging more people to get out and enjoy the natural beauty of the outdoors. If more people did - rather than sit around and play video games or text messaging 24/7 there would be a lot fewer problems in this world.
Crash, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. But unless there are some consequences to willful irresponsibility people will continue to waste limited collective resources and put other lives in danger.
I agree everyone should go exploring the wilds of Florida...Absolutely no one should come here to the swamp!
Keep in mind the problem may be extremely complicated, though the "Fix" is often simple...
"Teaching a child to fish is the "original" introduction to all that is wild." CS
"How can you tell a story that has no end?" Doc Carlson
Look gang...
I'm not advocating charging them money, but trying to find a viable solution to this enigma! Obviously the guy that advocates that the lost dude be billed for the cost of finding his lost butt was acting emotionally. Here's the thing, In most, if not all states you can't get a hunting license without going through a hunter's safety course of some kind; then you need to get a license. You can't legally fish in any State waterway in Illinois without a fishing license. SEARCHER'S DIE trying to find lost hikers, skiers, climbers, and the like! I wish that Rick SAR would come on here and weigh in on this. However, check out what he posts in post #497 here: http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...0936#post80936 And remember, he's the real deal!Maybe we need to have some kind of mandatory licensing or even outdoor training for hikers and campers, I don't know. They should at least be required to check in with a ranger before going out and maybe given a check list of gear with the hopes that they know how to use it! Perhaps Chris could have them post the web address of this site for any or all interested in going out into the woods. Just sayin'...
SARGE
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
Proud father of a US Marine....SEMPER FI!
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Boone got lost in the spring of 1771 and they had to send Kasper Mansker, one of the Tennessee boys, out to find him. Mansker found him camped on the banks of the Green River, lying on a deer skin singing at the top of his voice, waiting for the indians to come and kill him and put him out of his misery.
The book did not say if they charged him for the effort. Mansker would have probably done it just so he would stop singing.
If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?
Like I said....In the ideal Crash world.
I do think that if stupid was painful there would be a lot less of it. My concerns with the whole charging for a rescue if the person(s) that needed it were unprepared, or needed rescue due to irresponsibility is - who makes that determination? Is water, a compass and a whistle enough? Maybe to some, but for others they may need a 20 pound pack for a day hike. When I go hiking I take quite a bit more than I will need for a day hike. Why? Just in case I suppose. In case I might need it or more probably I'll run across somebody else that will. I just don't see a practical way to say that a hiker that needed rescue was qualified or prepared. Maybe they were at the start of the hike but then something happened.
Around here they call 911 for getting lost in corn mazes and apple orchards.
Now those, they should charge. Call it a Bonehead tax.
Can you see someone like SD telling the government where to stick their Wilderness License?
This is crazy, what if the police or fire service started doing this next? We'll only save you if you foot the bill...I hope this is shot down and instead they create a "wilderness basics" coarse that is provided free and can teach would be hikers the basics of what they need etc...for each area. And have them at every park and outdoors locations.
Our society is becoming too obsessed over money, and it's crippling too many things. NASA is all but finished because of "budgets" and science in general is probably hurting as well.
Some fire departments already do this - mostly rural, where taxes pay for the equipment, building, etc. People that live outside the "tax area" have the option to pay a fee each year to be included under the fire protection "umbrella". Taxes also fund the police departments. When the tax revenues are down, or are spent on other things - fire and police are cut. Expecting somebody else to do something for (insert group of people they are doing it for here) at no charge is akin to stealing IMO. If somebody chooses to do it at no charge that's a whole 'nuther game.
This is slightly off topic but relevant. Several years ago I was in Ontario on a fishing trip at a boat in camp. There were other camps on the lake and a group from another camp was hiking into a remote lake when one member stopped to take a leak and got lost trying to follow the others of his group. After wandering around all day, he came out on the lake shore across from the island where our camp was located. This was about two or three hours before darkness would have fallen. In an attempt to get our attention, he built a bonfire on the shore line --in a big windrow of drift wood--with a 30/35 mph wind blowing on shore--can you say "instant forest fire"? We had just come from the dinning hall down to the docks and spotted the smoke. We quickly motored over to the fire and rescued him but the fire was racing up over the hill. Long story short- the Ont. Fire Service had to send in a water bomber and a big ground crew to put out the forest fire.
Now the point to this post is: If you start a forest fire for any reason, Ontario will bill you for the cost of putting out that fire!! The camp owner estimated that that cost would be in the neighborhood of $75K!
Last edited by Old Professor; 05-16-2012 at 11:40 AM. Reason: misspelling
I was surprised nobody jumped onto the "no non-resident hunters in wilderness areas" rule that I mentioned. Any other time I have brought that up with non-resident hunters I get a major earful of how the government has no right to impose such restrictions... etc. etc. ad nauseum. The worst part is that I don't even disagree with them.
Anyway, as I said, I'm on the fence about this. I recognize the incredible expense that SAR efforts involve and I agree that ideally, stupid people should be held accountable for their acts but, I'm not willing to give up any of my freedoms in order to punish them.
I would absolutely fight tooth and nail against any kind of regulation that limited (whether by intent or just through default) my right to enjoy the wilderness whenever and wherever I see fit. I already get all fired up when I go into some national parks and have to pay an access fee. I sure am not willing to let some bureaucratic idiot in Washington define what does or does not make me "qualified" or "prepared" enough to go climb some mountain that has struck my fancy. So too, requiring insurance policies to be in place just forces additional burdens on the poor and less fortunate - the very people who can least afford such "safety measures."
Part of the price of freedom is that even stupid people get to enjoy it too.
Last edited by lucznik; 05-16-2012 at 01:01 PM.
This is a tuff subject to side with. For now I would say NO Pay for help by rescuers.
Looks like my work is done here
Don't run, you'll only die tired!
Almost every year, ice fisherman go out on the ice too late in the year, and the schmucks sit in their ice houses while the ice shelf breaks loose drinking beer and fishing. Before they know it, 75 of them with their snowmobiles, ATVs, and all kinds of other stuff is out in the lake isolated from everything. Then it takes SAR 3 days to get them all off the ice shelf. The local SAR is going to start charging them heavily for this, because those people are so stupid and I dont blame them.
But the average hiker that makes a simple mistake, I dont know, maybe they should have mandatory survival training that they have to pay for!
How much are you willing to pay for this survival training? It's not they, it's us. And what standard is used to judge "stupid"?
I have my own standard, trust me, but I don't think I want the government defining it for me. I've failed my own standard too many times.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
I doubt if I will ever have to pay, but if I was new to hiking, got lost, and almost died in the wilderness, I would pay whatever they charged. It would be a way to get people aware of how to navigate so they wouldnt repeat the stunt all over again.
If people dont realize theyt are stupid, maybe somebody should judge them by some kind of standard, like, if you fish too late in the year against all of the ice fishing warnings on the news, and float away in the lake, your stupid, pretty simple!
This is a weird site to be reading suggestions that say, "O Big Government, Save Me From My Stupidity"... That's an oxymoronic statement to begin with.
Anyone can take free or nearly free courses now, usually at a local sportsmans' store, on how to deal with wilderness things. Having a government requirement is not going to keep stupid people from doing stupid things. As Lucznik mentioned, why penalize the rest of us to coddle the stupid. Mistakes happen. Going off into the woods naked with a knife isn't a mistake. It's Darwin's theory at work.
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