How do you defend a retreat....Good question?

[trax]

Same concept, right? I've noticed a really big increase in the amount of business that bunker and safe room construction in the U.S. have been getting lately. Rampant paranoia or a precursor of the collapse of society as we know it?

At least somebody's getting rich off of it, whichever it is....

[trax]

Business seems to be booming for the companies that install them.

[wildWoman]

I dress up like a State Trooper and walk right up to the door. You assume that it is a State Trooper.

I'd tell you to go back to the amazing land of freedom that you came from Our dogs are an additional deterrent, they lick any intruders to death unless we intervene.

[rebel]

Hopeak - You offer some very good questions and it doesn't have to be your retreat. One of those or similar scenarios could certainly be used at your home today. If someone or a group is intent on doing you harm or taking your possessions and have a bit a creativity about them then those could become very real scenarios.

1. You have to be alert to the person and the context. For example, if the state trooper comes to my door there had better be a state police car in front of my house and he will still show his badge first. Same for military. I had better see vehicle and military ID. I raised three kids and didn't have the police here often but they did show up a time or two. I asked for a badge each time.

2. For the fire, naked lady, child scenario, one person stays inside and calls 911/sheriff/police while one armed person investigates. That's just personal protection. I hope that doesn't sound paranoid but my handgun is going to be on me when I go out the door. What if the naked lady scenario is real and the guy is out there?

Some scenarios could just take you by surprise so it's important someone (or some) stay behind. I wish I could find the military reference for this but I read recently it takes 7 fighters to overcome 1 defender. That's pretty good odds for the home owner.

For planning purposes it used to be 3-to-1 for an island or hill and 17-to-1 for a structure.

[Beo]

Tactically assaulting a structure, bunker, safe room, ranch, compound or whatever is easier than defending. The problem with breeching these structures with a charge of explosives is destroying what your trying to take in this type of situation, and of course a long siege is out of the question. A recon of the area surrounding these types of structures is a must.

SITUATION: Your group identifies a bunker, compond, ranch as having supplies it needs.
REQUIRED ACTIONS:
1. Large part of group initiates contact:
a. A squad of 6 men in contact establishes a base of fire.
b. The group leader and two others such as a heavy weapons team move
forward to link up with the the squad in contact.
c. The group leader moves forward with the second heavy weapons team and assumes control of the base-of-fire element.
d. The base-of-fire element:
(1) Destroys or suppresses enemy crew-served weapons first.
(2) Obscures the enemy position with smoke (this may be smoke grenades or just setting things on fire).
(3) Sustains suppressive fires at the lowest possible level.
The group scout calls for and adjusts indirect fires as directed by the group leader. The group leader determines that he can maneuver by identifying–
a. The holdout bunkers, other supporting positions, and any obstacles.
b. The size of the compound or bunker force engaging the group. (The number of enemy, automatic weapons, the presence of any vehicles, and the employment of indirect fires are indicators of resistance strength. This could have been done by the scout or scout team)
c. A vulnerable flank of at least one bunker.
d. A covered and concealed flanking route to the flank of the bunker.
3. The group leader determines which bunker is to be assaulted first and directs one squad (not in contact) to knock it out.
If necessary, a squad leader repositions a squad, fire team, or heavy weapons team to isolate the bunker as well as to continue suppressive fires.
4. The assaulting squad, with the group leader, move along the covered and concealed route and take action to knock out the bunker. The assaulting team approaches the bunker from its blind side and does not mask the fires of the base-of-fire element. This is done in succession to each bunker in the compound, eventually the compound will fall to the invaders.
That is how you (a military trained group) take a compound or bunker, now defending is different, how would you do it now knowing how they are coming in. Figure that out and you have your plan.

[Sourdough]

I have seen the "LIGHT", and gone over to the other side. No more Bunker'Bob for me. I have been enrolled into to the AR-15, Rape, Pilfer and plunder, "kill everyone" because life was not fair to me, anarchist crowd. And my team will be deploying to the land of milk and honey, Northern Idaho.

[Rick]

A documented story on attacking a bunker during WWII. A group of Germans were locked inside a bunker, laying down fire and refusing to surrender. Despite a number of attacks that included satchel charges and bazooka the worst done to the bunker was a small hole blown in the steel door. When all else had failed, a sergeant stuck his flare gun into the hole and fired it. The Germans streamed out almost immediately. They didn't mind the explosives but that new American weapon that bounced around inside the bunker was more than they had bargained for.

[Beo]

That is just how I was trained to assault a bunker, if I were taking a group to say an Idaho Spud farm that's how i'd do it. Don't cross over to the dark side Hopeak, we want and need you here.

[Sourdough]

That is just how I was trained to assault a bunker, if I were taking a group to say an Idaho Spud farm that's how I'd do it. Don't cross over to the dark side Hopeak, we want and need you here.

Old Men are expendable. I would make a better decoy, than a fighting machine. If I can not hold a retreat by my self, why try? Even though I hate my rubberizes loincloth, in point of fact I would last longer than most, alone in the wilderness, this is even more true in the arctic wilderness.

The reason I started this thread is that I could not see a way to hold a retreat from attack after attack. And I still do not see a way.

All I have learned is that if no one can find the retreat, then it can not be attacked.

Which leads me back to the camouflaged (sign saying, "Medical Waste Disposal, Inc.") warehouse idea. or the large boat.

[Rick]

You're right. No fortification has ever withstood an attack by a determined opponent. From Troy to the Marginot Line to the Western Wall. If folks want to get to you, then will.

[Beo]

Old Men are not expendable, they're a vast resource of knowledge. No one can hold a retreat by themselves, you can come to my place anytime. Personally I'd set you back about 200 or 300 yards with a high powered rifle and let you pick off the enemy or insurgents, since you say your too old. However a second in command or compound leader doesn't have to go into the combat, and a leader can direct from a distance his forces, so you are not expendable and can still lead the way.

[Beo]

And nowadays a retreat or compound can be defended, in a shtf situation it can be defendabe and survive, just leave no survivors of the opposing forces.

[Rick]

What makes today any different than the last 4000+ years? If a determined enemy wants to lay siege to a fortified compound they can do it. I've said before I think the ratio is 7 to 1 in favor of those inside the compound. If you have the numbers, you can still do it.

[Beo]

4000 years ago they didn't have a .300 winchester mag. a Ar-15, a mini14, or even a shotgun, or the knowledge we do today, different materials, and modern training which is alot better now than 200, 250, 500, 1000, or 4000 years ago. preparations and resources are way better now than 4000 years ago, and by your train of thought your no smarter than the people 4000 years ago, which may be true in your case but i think if you went back 4000 years ago with the knowledge you have now you'd be a king, or worshipped as a God, or excuted out of fear.

[Beo]

Also if you cannot successfully defend a stronghold then someone should tell the Vietnam Vets that who defended bases far away from the main posts and not only survived but held the base from well over superior numbered forces.
My hats off to them and heart feels for them, true warriors, soldiers, and Marine's all.

[Tony uk]

You're right. No fortification has ever withstood an attack by a determined opponent. From Troy to the Marginot Line to the Western Wall. If folks want to get to you, then will.

The Marginot Line was never attacked, the germans went around it.

[Rick]

Beo - Read your own post #88 on attacking a strong hold. With all due respect to our Viet Nam vets, the enemy was either vastly outnumbered in terms of armament or simply gave up. I doubt any fortified retreat will have Huey's, F4s or Cobras to call in for support.

Tony - Partially correct. That was how France was invaded (God bless the French. You have to feel sorry for someone that builds a huge freakin' fence then leaves the gate open). But the emplacements were attacked with success.

[Beo]

Rick that post can be countered, read Sun Tzu the Art of War

[Sourdough]

Guys, Guys, Guys........1.) if we guessed that most gangs would number what? A car full, or say 4 to 15.....? realistic what would the number of attackers most likely be? We would not expect 200 or even 50. I would expect a desperate family (3 to 12) or a near by city gang still less than 30.

Lets start with the highest probable attack number, what do you think that would be? And why?

[Rick]

I understand what you are wanting to do but I don't think it will work. Most folks think of trying to stay off some group of anarchists but what if the tables are reversed? What if some group from town gets tired of putting up with a small band harassing and stealing from them and decides to put an end to it. They could have 20 or 30.

In any case, my point is simply that you can't rely on some compound to keep you safe no matter how much planning you put into it.

I am very familiar with Sun Tzu so you know his principles apply no matter which side of the wall you are on. They apply equally well to business, too.