Emf

[Rick]

On the EMF piece - I know a guy that had a transmission line running across one of his fields near a barn. He laced the ground underneath the overhead lines with a single wire that from from the barn and back to the barn. The transmission line induced enough current that he could use a step up transformer and power his barn.......for a couple of weeks. Seems the power company noticed a drop in voltage about the time he powered up the barn. But it worked well before the sheriff showed up.

[Rick]

For those that think EMP would be a disruption over a long period of time, that's not the case. As soon as the initial damage is repaired we're back on the grid. If multiple events occurred then outages could be extended.

[Ridge Wolf]

Hmmm, Just so everybody knows... Scotland is a separate country.. with Scots in it.. The UK is a separate country.. with Brits in it.. (and a few Welsh).. Ireland is a separate country.. with Irish in it..

Now, Scotland is separated with a border between it and the UK much like Canada and the US are separated.

I hope y'all got that straight now..

[Rick]

Wait a minute! We don't OWN Canada? Who sold it?

[Ridge Wolf]

Wait a minute! We don't OWN Canada? Who sold it?

Actually, if the Canadians will be sharing our groundspace to assist in natural and terrorist disasters.. etc. and vice versa like they (the government?) are planning now.. we might own each other.. shortly.

[Sourdough]

For those that think EMP would be a disruption over a long period of time, that's not the case. As soon as the initial damage is repaired we're back on the grid. If multiple events occurred then outages could be extended.

RICK, Why did I have the idea that it could destroy computer records, Bank records, etc.????? Is it really no big deal....?????

[Rick]

Hopeak, it's a huge deal. But here's why those records will survive. Data centers have an online storage capability (obviously) and when you log into this forum or your bank account you log into the running program. The schedules will vary from data center to data center but generally, a full back up of that data is written to tape once a week. Those tapes are then shipped off site and stored in a climate controlled vault. It's part of the data center's disaster recovery program. Incremental backups may be taken every day or ever other day to capture the data that has changed since the last full backup.

Truly sensitive data such as your bank account or larger corporations like your power company or phone company may do full backups every night and store them off site.

So the only data that would be lost is online data. Those transactions that occurred in the last XX hours. Corporations also have either hot site capability or "first ship" capability. For hot site capability, they have contracted with a data center that specializes in disaster recovery. They literally ship those backup tapes to the disaster data center, load them on their equipment, make the necessary network changes and go back on line as if nothing ever happened. For "first ship" capability, the corporation contracts with a supplier (Honeywell, IBM, Sun, etc.) to ship the first available unit so they can replace the one damaged. That Sun server may have been sitting on the dock ready to be shipped to you but I've pre paid and paid a premium for Sun to ship to me if I have an outage. They will pull the unit going to you and ship it to me instead.

If the systems were down, then we reverted to paper and then input that information after the system was back on line. So our data loss was really quite small even for a significant outage.

This is big bucks territory and corporations spend millions to ensure they have recovery capability.

So an EMP event would have to be over a very broad area (more than half of North America) for massive outages to be long term. We had data centers in Washington, D.C., Ft. Wayne, In., Tampa, Fl., and California. In addition, we had a contracted hot site in Philadelphia as well as "first ship" capability. We could move our data to any data center or the hot site as needed. In addition, we tested our capability once per quarter where we would fly the tapes to the hot site and operate as if we were in a true disaster. Then a postmortem would be performed and the response times critiqued to find out what could have been done better.

Not everyone has that kind of capability nor do they all pay for that level of recovery but most could be back online within weeks and be able to restore data to the last XX hours as described above. The tapes would not be damaged.

Want to know how well it operates? When 911 hit we lost one of our server rooms in one of the buildings that was damaged. The servers in that room served the New York Stock Exchange. In addition, underground cables that ran beneath the towers were also severed. The exchange was down. Not able to talk to the outside world. If you recall, the NYSE was closed 9/11 - 9/17. During that time, crews restored both the com lines and servers that had been destroyed. In those six days everything was restored, albeit on a temporary basis. Hundreds of servers were cleaned and/or replaced and reprogrammed and temporary cables snaked through the streets to the NYSE. But, everything went back on line 7 minutes before the NYSE was scheduled to reopen and the outside world had no idea just how close it really was.

Coot - You worked out there. Were you involved in any of the cleanup?

[Beo]

Hmmm, Just so everybody knows... Scotland is a separate country.. with Scots in it.. The UK is a separate country.. with Brits in it.. (and a few Welsh).. Ireland is a separate country.. with Irish in it..
Now, Scotland is separated with a border between it and the UK much like Canada and the US are separated. I hope y'all got that straight now..

The United Kingdom is all the countries of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom, the UK, or Britain, is a sovereign island country located off the northwestern coast of mainland Europe comprising of the four constituent countries; England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It comprises the island of Great Britain, the northeast part of the island of Ireland and many small islands. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK with a land border, sharing it with the Republic of Ireland. Apart from this land border, the UK is surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea, the English Channel and the Irish Sea. The largest island, Great Britain, is linked to France by the Channel Tunnel.
Hope you got that straight now

[bulrush]

I believe it takes, on average, 48 hrs for the magnetic wave from a sun spot to reach the earth. They do not travel at light speed, they have to go coach.

I didn't believe the sun spot explanation until I read it in a reputable science magazine, GQ. Or was it Popular Science?

[Rick]

It's called solar wind. It takes between 4-5 days traveling almost 1 million mph. Not too shabby for coach.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22136870/

[trax]

It's called solar wind. It takes between 4-5 days traveling almost 1 million mph. Not too shabby for coach.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22136870/

Yeah, but try to get a drink, yeesh...

[Ole WV Coot]

Coot - You worked out there. Were you involved in any of the cleanup?[/QUOTE]

Nope, I was retired at that time. We had one central office go plus all cable. When I was there we had a lot of lead & paper cable but I guess like every other job it's temporary cable all the way back to pic easy straight splices, with amphenol connections whole offices can be online in no time. We backed up on a continuous basis back to 1965. First electronic office in D.C. was "stopped" when the press came for a tour and turned the camera lights on the cards. Had to take the old card writer and do two complete bays but we were backed up. I don't think a person working for them could wipe anything out except very recent changes. I did screw up and scrambled a SAC base in '65, but that's another story.

[Rick]

Paper cable. Those were the days. I'll tell you about being in a manhole doing a section cut with an 1800 pair open in the middle of a tornado and 7 inches of rain sometime. That was a wilderness experience! You know, I'm not sure God likes me come to think of it.

[Rick]

Just a note to Elijah should he come back as a visitor. You obviously didn't read the rules or you would have seen that posting PMs is also a violation. That's why they call them private. Hence the reason you were banned. By the way, in case you can't read, my name is not Richard. Have a good day.

[grundle]

I don't think it would be as dire as the original post paints it. Not ALL transportation will be rendered useless. You will still have diesel cars largely unaffected because they are not solely dependent on Petrol to run. You have a few saavy people who have set up wind and solar combo home systems keeping them largely off grid. The water driven power plants will continue to produce power as well.

The reality is that there are some safestops, but the real danger will be the panic it causes to all the people who don't stop for a minute and think. Most likely the lemmings will become unhinged and mass looting will occur. At that time I want to be as far away from the big cities as possible.

[Rick]

Actually, grundle, it could be that bad depending on the size of the solar flares. It isn't an issue of gas vs. diesel but an issue that CMOS circuits are highly sensitive to external power surges such as static electricity. In this case, EMF. Since most modern electrical devices use CMOS circuitry, you can expect them to be rendered useless. It doesn't matter if you are using solar, wind or hydro to produce your power. If there are circuit boards in the mix (and there are) they could be toast.

[grundle]

yes I thought about that. All the new-fangled cars would be SOL because they rely so much on engine circuitry, but a few motorheads would be able to bypass that. Anyone driving an older car would be laughing their arses off.

I assume gas would go quick because I remember seeing the lines from the gas wars in the 70's? I am not that old, I just read about it, and people flipped out and went for gas first. (wierd)

You are right about circuitry being toast, but fortunately to produce power all you need is copper wire and rotating magnets. Most people who produce their own home power will have a windmill that goes directly to a battery. Fortunately most houses don't have complex circuitry so they will be okay. A solar cell uses a different property called the "photoelectric effect" which takes the unique properties of superconducters that respond to light. Basically when light hits a cell, it will dislodge electrons in the material causing a current. Send this current through a wire to a battery and once again you are storing the energy. No problems from EMP there either.

The down side for those people is that their computers, TV's, and other hig-tech stuff will be toast. At least they will have light

[Rick]

Ah, to have my old 62 Chevy again. Not much digital in that baby.

I wouldn't be as concerned about the actual generator itself, although it could have problems. I was thinking more in terms of the charge controller. Same for the photo voltaics. You need something in place so you don't over charge the battery and that's where the circuitry would probably lie.

Just some thoughts.

[trax]

'62 Chevy? Oh yeah, I had a '62 Impala, I still believe that the 283 V8 engine produced by GM in the '60's might possibly be the pinnacle, the apex of mankind's foray into technology and engineering.

[Rick]

V8, yeah right. Like I could afford that. I was an inline 6 man. You could camp out under that hood.