Javelins/atlatl

**Mad Cow** · 08-15-2011, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Erratus Animus

Plz keep this in the terms of the context which between a survival bow and and atlatl. Any bow you make in the woods to survive is a survival bow. Without exception I am positive of this. Keep in mind what a survival bow is and is not. Also keep in mind that the bow will lose power every time it is shot, and I am not even talking about the set that the bow will surely have taken. Let's address cordage needed to power a bow. You may have 550 strands but because of the stretch of the strands again even more power loss.

An atlatl is a better choice than a survival bow IMO due too the above facts and it is easier to construct due to less tools needed, ,materials are abundant most anywhere - bow woods are not-, accuracy is pretty good even for a beginner.

Most ppl dont realized that along the southern coast and swamp areas that Native Americans did on make bows as often as they did the atlatl. This is due in part to the availability of woods that made a decent bow.

So if it came down to building a bow or atlatl in a survival situation I would build the atlatl , burn fewer calories , be equipped to hunt faster, have the same effective range, ease of replacement if needed, fewer tools needed to make, etc

E A

Bows have been made out of willow that shoot just fine. The wood used is important, but second to design. There used to be a magazine called the bowyers journal. On there message forums a fellow made a take down recurve bow out of white oak, and pint 2x4's. I built one in an hour from a white oak 1x2 that is a mess, but shoots a dog wood arrow good enough to kill. It also needs to be remembered that a survival bow does not need to last weeks. If it takes a set, then its fire wood, make another. Then there is the bow weight. In Texas there is no minimum draw weight, and many a deer and hog has fallen to 25 an 30 lb bows. I can see the atl atl as a weapon that can be kept in a pack with out taking up a bunch of room, but making darts in the wild is a pain. My Son made one from plywood that is compact, and will throw a dart with gusto. And I dont know ware you get the effective range thing from, I accurately hit and kill at forty yards, but I like them under 10. can also shoot a 6 ft bow while on my knees or sitting, cant do that with an atlatl. Its hard enough to draw without spooking game, the gyrations needed to throw a dart is likely spook game as well.

**kyratshooter** · 08-15-2011, 04:43 PM

There is a lot of suposition and projection here, along with a mix of survival and hobby thought processes.

Yes, a bow MIGHT be more efficient than an atalatal, in some hands. However, it is another skill that might keep you alive. We recomend 2 or 3 ways to start a fire be with you at all times. We recommend one learn several shelter making techniques. We hope to learn a half dozen water purification techniques. So why on earth would we restrict ourselves to only a gun, sling, bow or atalatal? I want to know them all!

SOME people might be able to knock out a perfect "survival bow" in an hour and perfect "survival arrows" in another ten minutes. We are talking in the field here, not sitting on the back porch and running out to the shop when we need another specialized tool.

The problem is that MOST people can not do so. They are stuck with that big-A rambo knife and forgot to sharpen it before they went to the woods. They have not figured out how to make an arrow and are still out on the highway trying to find a road killed turkey for the fletching and Lord only knows how they are going to make the bowstring!

Most people CAN knock out a usable atalatal and a couple of usable darts in a half hour or so using a rusty nail and a sharp rock.

Historicaly one will find that the bow and atalatal were BOTH in use at the same time when the Europeans came to the new world. The Cherokee prefered different tools for different animals and used both, along with blowguns for tree dwelling game. One tool did not simply replace the other, and the atalatal was used as the primary hunting tool on planet earth for around 40,000 years.

One might even view the tools as a progression. If I crash my bushplane and lose the shotgun, the AR7 and my .357 the first thing I am going to do is pick up a good stout stick capable of smacking the crap out of somehting, then build a fire. Next I will find another good stick and sharpen one end to make a spear. After my shelter is up, fire is strong and I have a safe sleeping place I will start looking for a hooked stick to make an atalatal to use with the spear I already have. After I set my snares and deadfalls, which will probably be my primary food getting devices, I might sit and make a bow and arrows as time permits.

For survival use I am not concerned about what the game laws, bow weight, draw weight, types of arrow tips and legality of the atalatal. If I had to kill something to stay alive they can write me any ticket they want to write. I'll pay it and be happy.

Hunting is going to be a secondary food gathering activity anyway. Most of your survival food is going to come from passive gathering in traps and snares and the most used stick you have will be the one you use to knock critters in the head when you find them in your snare.

**Rick** · 08-15-2011, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by KY

If I crash my bushplane and lose the shotgun, the AR7 and my .357 the first thing I am going to do is pick up a good stout stick capable of smacking the crap out of somehting, then build a fire. Next I will find another good stick and sharpen one end to make a spear. After my shelter is up, fire is strong and I have a safe sleeping place I will start looking for a hooked stick to make an atalatal to use with the spear I already have. After I set my snares and deadfalls, which will probably be my primary food getting devices, I might sit and make a bow and arrows as time permits.

I'm going to push the button on my PLB.

We should team up. You throw and I'll catch.

**Mad Cow** · 08-15-2011, 08:29 PM

I agree with the throwing stick thing, but you were off a bit with the bow thing. Break branch off tree, tie para cord to each end. Bow made. Arrow, break semi straight stick off same tree, split nock end, insert leaf, tie split end together with inner strands from para cord, make tip pointy, done. That set up will kill rabbit and squirrel easy and is more user friendly. An atl atl dart is longer then an arrow, and requires as much or more work. Either way, your traps and throwing stick along with flipping rocks will serve you better.

**Rick** · 08-15-2011, 09:58 PM

I don't think you're going to have much of a bow or arrow using broken limbs. I'll let the bow builders on here explain that one but I think both are a little more sophisticated than that.

**Mad Cow** · 08-15-2011, 11:21 PM

No, not really they are not. Built plenty of bows. Both self, and laminated. I have also taken a ton of small game with a simple stick with a para cord string. . Bows used to be made with nothing more then flakes of rock. Others have done it as well. That's covered in the first chapter of the traditional bowyers bible as well. Its ware I got the idea. There is no magic or voodoo in bow construction. There is also no magic in arrow construction.

**Mad Cow** · 08-15-2011, 11:26 PM

Here is one example of a kids bow made from a tree limb.

http://mag.amazing-kids.org/2011/06/...bow-and-arrow/

It needs to be remembered that we are talking about a field expedient bow that is useable now, and will last long enough to be rescued/found and is capable of downing small game.

This one is more involved, but go's along the same guide lines.

http://www.wildernesscollege.com/bow...tructions.html

**Rick** · 08-16-2011, 06:42 AM

Well, I'm genuinely impressed. I've learned something today. That makes it a great day! Thanks.

**Mad Cow** · 08-16-2011, 11:16 AM

No sweat. Now go try it out. The other nice the other nice thing about them is if and when they fail, they dont explode in a grand fashion. It also kind of makes that arrow head thing from RAT knives worth a second look huh ?

**pgvoutdoors** · 08-31-2011, 09:07 AM

I just came across this thread NCO, it was mentioned in another thread, and all of you have have given some good feedback to the use of a Atlatl. This is one primitive weapon that everyone should give a try at making.

**Mad Cow** · 08-31-2011, 02:57 PM

I would like to know how critical spine is for the darts, and what the minimum length can be, and of you can buy them.

**kyratshooter** · 08-31-2011, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

I would like to know how critical spine is for the darts, and what the minimum length can be, and of you can buy them.

You can buy dowels from some of the archery supply houses that are oversize. I have two 6' darts made from preformed 1/2" dowels made by my son.

My favorite material is river cane. It is easy to find, free and easy to work with. I do not use heavy sections. I prefer that they be no more than 5/8" diameter and really prefer 1/2" or smaller. Length can be anywhere from 4'-6'.

Spine is not really a factor with darts. You can use very slinder darts and they will work fine. They are darts, not spears. Think half way between a javalin and an arrow. They work like a large arrow so everything they do is in slow motion. When you throw you can see them oscilating from the thrower, then stabilize and go straight. It is quite interesting.

You also do not have to be an excellent fletcher to make the darts. You can use cardboard, milk carton plastic, soda can aluminum or any other such substance for the fletching. If using river cane you can trim the shaft at one of the section nodes for your atalatal hook to fit. Then you split the cane carefully for a few inches and insert the fletch. Bind the cane below the fletch and above it, them bind at the end where the thrower fits to reinforce the dart. No special tools needed other than a cutting edge.

You could cut points from sheet metal or any other thin metal stock, bone, horn or such. Flint would be my last choice for an atalatal dart. Save it for knife blades.

My son says that he learned to make good arrows by watching the preformance of his atalatal darts.

I have seen the boy put three or four darts into the air before the first one landed 100 yards away.

A couple of years ago I had a group at one camp who made their darts from materials gathered on the spot and were getting 100 yard throws with the most primitive darts in less than a morning of work and practice.