Japan Info

[Trabitha]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...bles-show.html
Japan earthquake: Japan warned over nuclear plants, WikiLeaks cables show.


ooops!

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The news I've been watching says the fires are spent fuel rods that are exposed that have heated to the point of burning. Does any body know what happens when they burn? Does this in anyway lesson the radioctive danger? Could just letting them burnout be an option? It seems to be what is going to happen anyway.

[Trabitha]

They burn HOT. The rods must be kept submerged in water. It takes a MASSIVE amount of time for them to cool and the water evaporates from their heat. When it evaporates to the point where the tops of the rods are exposed, the temp. eventually gets to the point where they will catch fire. The fire will spread if they are not cooled quickly, and will eventually lead to an explosion.

[Sourdough]

The news I've been watching says the fires are spent fuel rods that are exposed that have heated to the point of burning. Does any body know what happens when they burn? Does this in anyway lesson the radioctive danger? Could just letting them burnout be an option? It seems to be what is going to happen anyway.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/09/...ack_or_se.html

[Alaskan Survivalist]

They burn HOT. The rods must be kept submerged in water. It takes a MASSIVE amount of time for them to cool and the water evaporates from their heat. When it evaporates to the point where the tops of the rods are exposed, the temp. eventually gets to the point where they will catch fire. The fire will spread if they are not cooled quickly, and will eventually lead to an explosion.

That makes sense...not what I wanted to hear. Thanks.

[BENESSE]

Here's a hypothetical I'm wondering about.
Say, you need to evacuate your home because of potential dangerous radiation levels.
1. How quickly do those levels degenerate before you can safely come back?
2. Is your stored food affected in any way--all those dried beans and rice and Mountain House? Will it ever be safe again?

[Trabitha]

I don't know about how quickly the levels will degenerate...but I always learned NEVER to eat the food left behind. I heard stories of people eating the food used at test sites years ago, claiming it was safe...and then getting rather ill.
I would never eat it...

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Here's a hypothetical I'm wondering about.
Say, you need to evacuate your home because of potential dangerous radiation levels.
1. How quickly do those levels degenerate before you can safely come back?
2. Is your stored food affected in any way--all those dried beans and rice and Mountain House? Will it ever be safe again?

Old cold war films said you should be prepared to stay underground for 2 weeks.

[Sourdough]

Here's a hypothetical I'm wondering about.
Say, you need to evacuate your home because of potential dangerous radiation levels.
1. How quickly do those levels degenerate before you can safely come back?
2. Is your stored food affected in any way--all those dried beans and rice and Mountain House? Will it ever be safe again?

You might ask, “well, if the containment structure can contain the melted reactor core, is there a real danger to the public?” The answer is, “yes,” but not from where you think. The reactor core may well be the focus of most people, but the real concern is somewhere else.

What many people don't know about nuclear power plants is that when spent fuel is off-loaded from the reactor core, the fuel is then placed into what is essentially a large, very deep swimming pool called the “spent fuel pool.” Fuel that has been removed from an operating reactor core is still very hot (both in the sense of temperature and radiation level). In fact, if you were to stand within even 50 feet of a spent fuel assembly with no shielding, you would receive a lethal dose of radiation in just seconds. The water in the spent fuel pool, in addition to cooling the fuel assemblies, acts as a biological shield. In fact, water is an excellent shielding material. You can stand at the top of the spent fuel pool in virtually any nuclear power plant in the US and receive virtually no dose of radiation, so long as the fuel assemblies are covered by about 25 feet of water.

The building that houses the spent fuel pools at nuclear power plants in this country is usually a simple building, with concrete sides and floors but usually with nothing but a thin, corrugated steel roof. This is the root of the problem. Just like the fuel in the reactor, the fuel assemblies in the spent fuel in pool must also be cooled. These pools have their own independent, multiply redundant systems for cooling, separate from the systems that cool the reactor core. However, these pool cooling systems can be cross-tied with the reactor cooling systems in an emergency. The water in the spent fuel pool must be continuously circulated through heat exchangers (again, like your car radiator) to reject heat. Loss of off-site power will also cause a loss of spent fuel cooling. Normally, the temperature in these spent fuel pools is somewhere around 100 to 110 degrees F or so (similar to a typical suburban “hot tub”). When the spent fuel cooling system pumps stop operating, the fuel assemblies in the spent fuel pool will immediately begin to heat up. These fuel assemblies will continue to heat the water in the spent fuel pool until it boils. The best case scenario of “time to boil” for these spent fuel pools is perhaps 90 hours. The worst case, such as just after a core offload, would be much shorter, perhaps as little as four hours or even less. At that point, once the fuel assemblies in the spent fuel pool become uncovered because the water has boiled off, the effects mirror what would happen in the reactor core. The spent fuel assemblies will heat up until the fuel cladding starts to melt. As bits of the melting fuel fall into what is left of the water in the pool, the process will just accelerate as the heat source is now more concentrated since it has fallen back into the water and the water may flash to steam and this may cause the pressure in the building to increase, and radioactive steam, carrying radioactive particles, will now begin to exit the building through the non-sealed penetrations, portals or doors in the building.

Of course, there are usually multiple sources of water than can be called upon to re-fill the spent fuel pool before the water all boils off. But virtually all of these systems are dependent upon working, electrically operated pumps to move this water. If control systems have failed due to the EMP and there is no power to operate the pumps (either to add additional water or to pump water through the heat exchangers), then the fuel will ultimately become uncovered. Exposing the hot zirconium fuel cladding to air and steam causes an exothermic reaction, and the cladding will actually catch fire at about 1,000 degrees C. Even the NRC concedes that this type of fire cannot be extinguished, and could rage for days (Source: Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, Vol. 58, No. 1, Jan./Feb. 2002).

The bottom-line is that if the spent fuel cooling pumps cannot be operated or the system cannot be cross-tied with the reactor shutdown cooling system, then the fuel assemblies in the spent fuel pool will melt, catch fire, and radioactive fission products will be released into the atmosphere and much of the countryside downwind of the nuclear power plant will be contaminated for many years. Thus, an EMP attack has the potential to cause a Chernobyl type accident at every nuclear power plant in the country!

There are a lot of “ifs” to this scenario. IF there is an EMP attack or solar event. IF the emergency diesel generators will function (or not) and IF the spent fuel pooling system can get power from the diesels or be cross-tied to the shutdown cooling system. Perhaps the emergency diesel generators will still function, but what happens when they run out of fuel? In the event of an EMP attack, can tanker trucks with diesel fuel get to all of the nuclear power plants in the US in time to re-fuel them before they stop running? Will tanker trucks even be running themselves?

I think it also bears noting that the volume of fuel in the spent fuel pools is many times greater than that in the reactor cores. Most nuclear power plants have 10 to 20 years or more of spent fuel stored in their spent fuel pools. Therefore, the consequences of a spent fuel pool melting down and subsequently spewing radioactive fission products into the air is potentially worse than if just the reactor core were to melt and its fission products releases into the air. Assuming all of the spent fuel in the pool melts, catches fire and the radioactive isotopes are released into the atmosphere, lethal dose rates may be accumulated even 5 to 10 miles from the plant site (>500 REM), with dose approaching 50 REM even out as far as 50 miles. Since Cesium-137 would be the largest released isotope in terms of curies (which the body preferentially uptakes over potassium), it will be about 300 years before the area might be habitable again. This is because Cesium-137 has a half-life of about 30 years, and the “rule of thumb” is that you need to wait ten half-lives before the isotope has decayed away to a negligible level. (Results for dose were calculated for a typical pressurized water reactor (PWR) spent fuel pool using the RASCAL radiation dose code from Oak Ridge National Laboratory assuming 100% release over two days, winter conditions, calm winds at 4 mph.)

[BENESSE]

I read the survivalblog but it still doesn't answer my question about
stored (cans, buckets, jars, dehydrated, freeze-dried) food safety.
If you bail out with a BOB and come home after a month when all's clear, will your stash be safe for consumption?

That's providing you haven't stored your food in some type of a fall-out shelter, or under 25' of water, etc.

[kyratshooter]

I read the survivalblog but it still doesn't answer my question about
stored (cans, buckets, jars, dehydrated, freeze-dried) food safety.
If you bail out with a BOB and come home after a month when all's clear, will your stash be safe for consumption?

That's providing you haven't stored your food in some type of a fall-out shelter, or under 25' of water, etc.

If you are more than 50 miles from the radiation source your supplies should be usable. The real worry outside about 12 miles is particulates in the air. If you wash off your canned goods they should be safe. Same for washing the particulates off your skin and clothing.

The radiation itself is line of sight electromagnetic discharge. The steam and dust from the explosion/burnoff will be radiated and floating. It will settle naturally onto surfaces, or be washed from the air by rain or snow, which is also radioactive.

When I was a kid we were not allowed to eat the snow, even if it was not yellow. They were still doing above ground testing here, USSR and in China. Massive nuke explosions were taking place on a regular basis and if we had enough distance we were safe. Only New Mexico still glows in the dark.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Only New Mexico still glows in the dark.

KY, what is this based on? My entire family is living in the Tijeras Mountains except me and my little girl?

[r0ckhamm3r]

The Trinity Nuclear test site at White Sands Proving Ground?

This was the fallout pattern after the test:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trinity_fallout.png

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Japan is the second largest buyer of our debt. Not buying our debt will have huge consequences but what if they begin to sell it it off?

[Sourdough]

Japan is the second largest buyer of our debt. Not buying our debt will have huge consequences but what if they begin to sell it it off?

Why do you thing the U.S. Dollar went into the crapper today in relation to the Yen.........? A bigger issue might be if China see Japan dumping US Treasuries......what will China do......? Buy them.......? or liquidate some of there position.......? This would make the US Dollar worthless......then "YOU" get your one world currency.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Why do you thing the U.S. Dollar went into the crapper today in relation to the Yen.........? A bigger issue might be if China see Japan dumping US Treasuries......what will China do......? Buy them.......? or liquidate some of there position.......? This would make the US Dollar worthless......then "YOU" get your one world currency.

That did seem odd but I did not make the connection. All curencies are valued against each other so I have never taken them as much of an indication. They are all losing value.

[Rick]

Look at the sale of the Yen. It skyrocketed. That's why the yen rose so sharply against the dollar. Currency investors were buying the yen like crazy. The speculation is the Japanese will pull cash from other countries (called repatriation) in order to pay for all the damage. The Euro and the Sterling both took a hit against the dollar as well.

I read that the G7 will be holding a conference call tomorrow (Friday) to determine if they will provide help to Japan. So far, the Japanese have said they don't need financial help but the conference call and a statement by the G7 that they are prepared to assist would no doubt quench a lot of fear and probably bolster the Nikei. But that's just my guess. EDIT: The G7 call is today, sorry.

The Japanese surely don't want a strong Yen any more than we do. The higher the Yen the more costly their exports and right now is the wrong time for their exports to be expensive. They need to push everything they can manufacturer to build liquidity.

I also read somewhere that the Japanese had already established a rebuild budget based on the earthquake disaster in Kobie. They did so early on before the full scope of the disaster was known but said they would have no problem meeting the rest of it.

Right now their biggest problem, in terms of finance, is speculation and fear. At least that's my assessment.

[Rick]

"A Japanese government spokesman, Noriyuki Shikata, warded off fears of an imminent meltdown, telling CNN on Thursday, "We have not seen a major breach of containment" at any of the plant's troubled nuclear reactors."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/as...saster/?hpt=T1

[crashdive123]

The following comment is about a news story I watched last night, and not a commentary about any discussions we've had on this topic.

In that story - every pharmacy, health food store, or other provider of KI is out (in Jacksonville, FL). Some patrons were waiting in line for new shipments that were due to arrive soon. They sited the potential threat from the "deadly cloud" headed toward the United States. Remember - this is Florida. While I am POSITIVE that any airborne contamination is not a threat to the residents of Florida, people should prepare for what they perceived as a threat. In this case, education would go a long way.

None of the people interviewed "ever considered a hazard from radiation". Really? Our biggest and ongoing threat is sunshine, but that aside ----- Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base - home to the East Coast Trident Submarine Force. Each ship has a nuclear reactor. Each ship is capable of carrying 24 D5 missiles. Also at Kings Bay Naval Submarine Base is the Strategic Weapons Facility Atlantic. A nuclear powered Air Craft Carrier is about to be home ported at Mayport Naval Base. There is an NFL stadium in downtown Jacksonville - a prime target for those that would wish us harm.

Educating ones self about the possibility of threats is important. Misinformation and panic are dangerous.

[letslearntogether47]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/...n-wonder-drug/