Crossroads

[your_comforting_company]

When I quit my last job they wound up hiring 3 people to replace me. It's been several years since I've been gone, and with the economy the way it is, I find myself faced with a tough decision.
Lack of steady work for several months now is really making me consider putting in an application for a position that is opening to run a new CNC machine they just got. I ran all the CNC machines when I was there before, so this one can't be any more complicated than lasers or plasma.
The Mrs. got a great job at the hospital, but she's not making a huge pile of money or anything, though it is definately helping keep our couple bills paid.

Maybe I'm just getting antsy. I feel like I should be working steady, it's what I've always done. IF I put in an application and get the job, you can bet it'll be just like it was before when I worked there: 60+ hours a week, working every saturday. This will severely limit the amount of time I have to do things for myself, like gardening and hunting and fishing, learning about storage and plants, and EXTREMELY limited tanning. This was my contention for quitting in the first place: Why should I spend my entire adult life making this rich man richer, while I suffer, doing nothing for myself for lack of time, and spending what little money I make to pay the bills, which will go up significantly if I have to go back to buying groceries and the like.

I really have the feeling that this newest endeavor might bear some future for me (and it's what I want to do); teaching classes related to primitive skills and self-sufficiency. Just as this was about to take off, I begin feeling the pressure to get a real job again. If I miss the opportunity to get this real job, I doubt there will be another opening there again for several years; If someone quits, which is doubtful since it is one of the few places to work around here.

What would you do? pursue your dream or capitulate?
I have given up on dreams and ambitions so many times in the past to do what had to be done, that I am really disappointed in myself. I'm smart enough, that I could have been anything I wanted to be. I finally settled on being nothing, and nobody, and have to admit, it's really comfortable.
The Mrs. really doesn't like me roofing by myself, and I don't really like it either, but you do what you gotta do, right?
Well.. I ain't gotta but I feel like it's an opportunity, and if I miss it, it could mean years before another such opportunity comes around. On the other hand, If I give up on this whole primitive gig, I'll feel like I just "gave up" and will probably never get the opportunity (or days off) to pursue it again.

Saturday will really tell me if there is any future in this endeavor. If there is a big turnout, and lots of interest, I'll probably let the "real job" go to someone else and just be happy being unwealthy and (mostly) independent. If I spend all day demonstrating Saturday and only 5 people show up, I'm probably gonna put in my application just be unhappy being unwealthy, and totally dependent.

[randyt]

Can you hire a person to help you roof? And pay them a percentage as a sub, this way you're not roofing alone and have them get a their own comp policy. Also in regards to your roofing do you run it like a business? What I mean by that is I've seen self employed people people barely eke by, they're too low on their prices because they don't understand their true costs of doing business and they are cheap and they're not systematic in their approach. Being cheap is not honest in my opinion it short changes you and your family. I'm not saying you are, I'm babbling.

also with life we get one chance at getting it right. At the end we can't say heck I didn't like the way that went I want a do over.

[Winnie]

This is a dilemma I don't envy you. Have a real heart to heart with Mrs YCC and the children to get their opinions. Noone can really answer this for you but I would strongly urge you to talk to the family and put to them what you have written here. With luck you will all make the right decision together.

[crashdive123]

YCC - I think you've already answered your own question. Financial security is important, and contrary to what you believe, will offer you freedoms that you may not have thought about. Being in a position to pay off all of your bills, including your home and vehicle(s) puts you in a place where you don't "have" to do something because you are a slave to your bills. Before I started my own business I was working 80+ hours a week. I was traveling a lot. At the time I thought I really enjoyed what I was doing. When the company was sold and I lost my job (and started my own business) I had the opportunity to reflect on my previous 5 years with that company. I came to realize that I was not as happy as I thought I was. That being said - the pay was great, and it afforded me to pay off all of my bills. Starting a small business can be very stressfull financially, but because of the job that I did for the previous five years I was able to start the business and not take a single loan. I'm now doing something that I enjoy, and at a pace that I enjoy doing it.

A job or opportunity that comes along in life does not have to be an either or proposition. That passion that burns inside of you will keep you focused on what is important to you and your family. If you decide to take advantage of a job opportunity to put yourself in a position where you do not need to have that job......

Just something else to think about.

[Rick]

Why do you see it as either/or? I can't tell you what to do. I can only tell you what I did and why I did it.

Like you, I love the outdoors and as a youngster spent all my time either playing in the woods or playing baseball. Once I got married and had kids my outlook changed. It was no longer about me or what I wanted to do. Rather, it was about my wife and kids and what they deserved. I wanted to provide my kids with the very best opportunities they could have. That meant a change of location, me going back to school and working whatever hours I needed to work to make that happen. I worked, generally, six days a week and usually 12 or more hours a day except on the nights I had school.

I'm happy to report that things worked out pretty well for us but it didn't just happen. It was part of an overall plan that was written down, modified when needed, and closely followed. Yeah, I'm anal that way but life isn't a meandering stream that will eventually lead you where you want to go. It's a road map that you draw out and follow if you expect to end up where you want to be.

I've always seen life as a mindset. You can be as happy or as miserable as you want doing anything. I can also tell you that even though some of the jobs I had within the company were not what I was going to be doing my whole life I was happy doing them because I was doing what I had set out to do. It was part of the plan. Every success (raise, graduation, etc.) was vindication that I was on track.

Your kids may want to go to college or they may not. They may want to travel or not. They may turn out to be President or a bum but whatever they do it's nice to know you can help in their endeavors. Having a steady income stream will allow you to do that to whatever degree you choose.

There is also no reason you can't take the job and do the teaching on Sundays or evenings. Establish some ground rules with the boss. Tell him you're willing to work and overtime isn't a problem but you want Sundays or whatever time you choose available to you and your family. As long as you pull his butt out of whatever jam comes along then he's probably going to do whatever he can to help you. And, by the way, it's not about making the rich man richer. Totally wrong attitude. It's about enriching yourself and your family. Don't begrudge him because he's successful. He's living his dream and there's nothing wrong with that.

Decide what you want to do in life then put down on paper your short term goals and long term goals. Make them quantitative. Something that you can track and you'll know when you have achieved it. Pay off a credit card bill by June of next year is an example. And make sure they are achievable. President in 2012 is probably not doable for any of us. Then follow YOUR plan. Whatever you choose to do, maintain a balance in your life. All work or all family is really not a good choice in the long run.

EDIT: Are we married, Crash? I was typing when you posted. Pretty close ideas.

[your_comforting_company]

@ randy. Finding someone who wants to work that hard is a real challenge. I could hire someone as I have in the past, but finding someone mature enough to show up, work long hard hours.. They just don't last very long. Those mature enough are generally too old to do it as an every-day thing. Those young enough always seem to have legal/marital/drug & alcohol/other problems that end up leaving me working by myself anyway. I don't really run it like a "business" but more like "I'm just a guy who wants to work to earn his keep and pay the bills.. not get rich". The first year I went through 5 workers. one was too old to maintain, and the others were all tied up with "girl troubles".

@ Winnie. The kids think I'm successful because I'm living the kind of life(style) that I want to live. The wife is very encouraging in the primitive teaching aspect and understands how I feel about the "real job" because I was so miserable when I was there before. In fact, that job was a major part of why we got divorced in the first place. (bet you didn't know we are technically not married hehe). The issue is choosing between freedom and pursuit of happiness, versus the pursuit of the "Almighty dollar".
We do without a lot of things, like no satellite TV, no extended vacations to theme parks, but we always have good food to eat, a nice fire, and a happy home with lots of fun things to do that I won't have much time for if I get the real job. Either way we'll still be on a budget that won't be much different from what we have now, because of the added cost of not being able to do things for my(our)self. Less hunting/gathering/gardening means more expense at the grocery store.

How much time you spend working is directly proportional to the kind of lifestyle you want to live. If you want to drive around a $40,000 car, you are gonna work to pay for it.. I'm happy driving around my old clunker. I could be paying $60/ month for TV that I don't watch anyway, and if I did spend my time in front of the tv, I would be doing even less for myself. Ever since I've been working for myself, my income has steadily decreased because I find ways to replace things that were costing money with things that are free.. like the garden. The more independent I become, the less I need to work to make ends meet.
LIke randy says.. you only get one shot to get it right.. no mulligans. Will I look back and say I was happy and had a good run? or will I be like my dad and neighbor, looking back and thinking "damn, I missed out on a lot of fun stuff and now I'm too old to do any of the things I wanted to do in life".

One prime example is the Demonstration this weekend. If I had the real job, I wouldn't be able to do it because the folks that I know that still work there (several friends and my dad) are working this Saturday. Even my knapper friend that was going to demonstrate with me had to cancel because of his work schedule. Even when he was planning to attend, he needed to sell some of his wares to make "gas money", as compared to myself being able to do it because I stuck back "gas money". He makes around 30k a year, versus me making 14k, yet I have the gas money to go do a charity demonstration to help raise money for a good cause and the free time.

This logic escapes so many people.. I hope it makes sense to some of you.

[your_comforting_company]

I was typing when both of you posted.. maybe the last post helps make some of it make sense.

[Rick]

YCC - It all makes sense. Like Crash, said. I think you've already made your decision. You'll just looking for us to justify it for you.

What was right for me may be all wrong for you. You have to live YOUR plan.

[your_comforting_company]

I just went to talk to my Grandma about it and she said the exact same thing you guys said. She said "I can't tell you what to do".

My Grandfather was a roofer his whole life. Self employed and worked with his kids and brothers and their kids. It was a family affair. He never was a wealthy man, but he had a nice boat and tractor, and if he decided to go fishing today, he could and that was what he did. All three of his kids got regular jobs. My Aunt is Civil Service in AK, and my dad and uncle all work at the mills here. They've all got nice houses and cars and boats, etc. but they don't ever have time to enjoy them. Can't go fishing on sunday AND plant the garden.

My grandma understood completely, but still said she didn't want to influence my decision. Maybe I was just looking for justification.

I am looking to hire someone, but everyone needs something steady right now, and tbh, the inflow of construction related work is minimal. people just aren't building in this area right now. Most folks aren't prepared to get by on less, the way I am.

So.. I gotta go patch a roof now. Maybe I'll go fishing at the creek when I get done this afternoon.

[BENESSE]

...But I am in exactly the opposite predicament--trying to summon enough courage to get off the treadmill and make up for missed time.
All my life I've been responsible and did what I set out to do. I wanted it, I enjoyed it, I was challenged by it, and worked my tail off since there was no other way to get there.
I chose not to have kids so that I wouldn't have to give up anything for their sake. I missed vacations and came back early from those I took because some project "needed" me, or something "important" was at stake. I did all that not in order to acquire more stuff, but to get more freedom, security and the means to be helpful to family and friends in need.
But as Rick said, this is a mind set. And in my mind, success on the job (any job) meant success in life. Achieving a balance wasn't an option because in my profession it's all or nothing. People who frequently took time off, or had to get home early, or couldn't come in on weekends were never given big, challenging projects or a lot of responsibility and were always the first on the firing line when times got tough. It's still that way, and unfortunately it makes sense.
Now that times are tough and jobs are scarce, I can't justify walking away to pursue all that I couldn't before. It wouldn't be fair to Mr. B, who like me, works hard but would surely enjoy a slower pace. He is very supportive...encourages me to just walk away but I can't bring myself to do it. Now if one of us lost their job, it wouldn't be the end of the world. But what if I wasn't working and he lost his job? Our sense of freedom and independence wouldn't last very long. It would turn into a quest for survival instead of a quest to live life. A huge difference, the way I think about it.

[OhioGrizzLapp]

I found other ways to make money and have it be better than steady all 4 seasons. I got tired of working my arse off and taking public buses and doing my part just so welfare recepients can drive their Escalades. Now, with all the little things I do, the gun shop, rustic furniture making, selling and teaching, the hiking sticks and other various home based ventures, I make way more money wise than I ever did as an engineer.

I am having fun, more time to do the things I enjoy, more money stuffed in the mattress and I do not have idiots above me telling me what to do....I am my own chief idiot now.... errrrrr wait, that did not sound right...I am my own boss now.

Personally, I have found what is important to me in life....as well as a new found love of teching....I get a real kick out of watching people I have taught to make rustic furniture...thei first piece and the look of pride and joy on their faces is honestly worth every single minute and effert.....

[hunter63]

I can't answer your dilemma for all the reasons listed above. Only you can.

I made my own plan, or sorta fell into it, reacting to the world and life.

Left a small town to follow opportunities, more money, and a girl.

This plan involved working hard, taking care of myself/my family....First.
Second, have fun doing what you want, make time.
I believe you/ me/ all of us, are the hardest on yourself/ourselves, than anyone.

Have fun on the way, a lot of people are defined by their job, and you hear statements when meeting some one......
"Hi, My name is MR. Thusandsuch, and I am Vice president of whatever, when I retire I will "take up" gardening, camping, fishing.......yeah right.

I would just say that I am a hunter/gatherer that worked in a factory to be able to afford it.

Good fortune, my friend....Things will work out.

[Pal334]

There probably no one good answer. I have been able to "step off the treadmill" that B described. I was fortunate to have gotten myself to a Financially stable place in life to enable this to happen. I "sucked it up" on the treadmill for many years. Now I am able to basically do as I please. Granted I do still work, but is nice to know that I can walk away with no adverse consequences. I guess my rambling is meant to say that to ensure your and the kid (s) future a job is a necessity, and sometimes you have to make your "dream" accomodate that reality.

[MidWestMat]

After being a workaholic all my life, from 14 to 42 with maybe two weeks unemployed the whole time, I do have regrets. The regret is Time for my family, or the lack thereof. I worked 60 hours a week, average 14 hours a week in travel time, and on call when I wasn't working, after the Wife and I had kids so i could make sure they had things. The things I didn't have in my youth, or my Wife's youth. Now that I am disabled and we have less things, I realize the Time that I missed, and that I now get to spend Doing things with them are both more beneficial to them as adults to be, and more beneficial to our relatonships amongst ourselves as Family. Before, I did not have the time to teach or practice 'survval' skills, or practical skills, I got to talk about it but not nearly enough hands in the mix.

My family tells me that they much prefer me home and spending time with them, because that is only for a season. Better that than to lay up treasures to attempt to insure the success of strangers that they might otherwise become. Of course, in my situaton I have the support of the Wife and my children. You should speak have a heart to heart with yours and see where they would rather you be. I bet I can guess...

[randyt]

It can be a challenge to know which way to go. I've been in business for 24 years. the early years I worked my guts out, it was not fun. Then I started running the business like a business. Things improved after that. I did miss a lot of fun time and a few years ago I decided to strive to take and make time for me. Now days when I think about working for some one else I realize I could screw off and still make wages.

some folks like the security of a steady job. I've often wondered is a job really secure these days.

There is a funny thing that I've noticed about business. You can take three guys in the same business. One will go broke, one will work his guts out and barely make a living and one will make money. making money is not dishonest. I often say to my self that I have to charge enough for my service to be of service.

what ever you do, you can change your mind later and make a course correction if things aren't good.

[BENESSE]

... to ensure your and the kid (s) future a job is a necessity, and sometimes you have to make your "dream" accomodate that reality.

what ever you do, you can change your mind later and make a course correction if things aren't good.

To build on what Pal & Randyt said (also channeling my grandfather)...

When you have kids, their needs come first. You want them to feel secure, worry-free and have options in life. You know they love you, and they'll support you in anything you want to do because they want you to be happy. When you're happy, they are happy. However, they'll be less likely to verbalize that they also depend on you and look up to to you to make them feel less vulnerable to the ups and downs of life.
You can always quit a job that turns out not to be right for you, but you can't always find one when you need it most. It's also easier to land a job when you already have one. You're just more attractive to future employers.
So what's the worst that can happen if you take this job?

[Camp10]

I typed out a response but hit preview instead of submit and then lost it....I'll give the quick version. I work lots and lots of hours but I work around my schedule (middle of the night, storms, etc). I still have time for a garden, a knifeshop, hunting trips, family camping, playing on the computer (although I stuck an old computer in the knifeshop) and all kinds of other fun things for the family. I dont look at it as an either/or choice and I think that as long as you do, whatever you decide to do you will regret.

Agree to 40 hours a week and work more when it is good for you to do that. Companies have done a good job getting people to believe they are lucky to have a job but I am arrogant enough to believe that a company is lucky to have me. Someday they might think different but so far it is working for both of us!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

If the company is always working over 40 hrs. It is an inefficient process and mismanaged. Sounds like your respected there for your knowledge. Maybe get in the door but have a discussion about the future and set your sights on bigger things than pushing the go button on a CNC machine. I was a fabricator for 13 yrs. today there is not much call for one, rather a start button pusher and a lumper (parts unloader). I for one loved my trade...but as technology replaced my skilled hands, I become just that a lumper. Be cautious it may not be what it used to be to be an operator. Now the other side of the coin suppose those ambitions of bigger and better things at the company come to fruition.....hours can be long on a fixed salary and it often follows you home...sometimes being a lumper wasn't so bad...hindsight is 20/20. Most importantly if your a Dad you do what Dads do. This is not advice at all just experience.

[Rick]

Not necessarily. It's often cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional help once you consider the loaded labor rate and the learning curve. You have to know what the break even point is between overtime and new hire and try to balance that with your projected sales.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Not necessarily. It's often cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional help once you consider the loaded labor rate and the learning curve. You have to know what the break even point is between overtime and new hire and try to balance that with your projected sales.

I do agree I made a rather blind statement. There are alot of variables...It depends on alot of things, fatigue also has to be factored in. Injuries also enter the equation with long hours. I'll say for the most part an efficient shop does not work overtime unless the standard demand has exceeded equipment capacity or labor hours for a relatively short term.
So far as the PSI, I say horse puckey, with all due respect to Rick, he is OLDer and WISER.