New project

[klkak]

This is the beginning of my latest project. I found an old mill file and thought I'd make a knife out of it.

I first annealed it in the shop wood stove by ducting air through the draft.

Then I sanded all the teeth off.

Then roughed out this design.

Now that I know I can get the stove hot enough. All I need to know is what do I quench the steel in when I'm ready to treat it?

I'll post another picture when I've started grinding in the blade. It'll be a flat grind. I'll also put a bit of a drop to the tip.

Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

[crashdive123]

Kevin - the file knives that I've done all turned out pretty good. The heat treat that I did was heat (I used a propane torch and some fire bricks) them to non-magnetic (check periodically after you get the blade glowing orange/red) and then quench (I've always used warmed motor oil).

[Camp10]

Warmed motor oil is great. Tranny fluid or olive oil (warmed) also do a nice job. Most any water or oil cooled steels thin enough to be a knife will harden just fine with an oil quench. How long did it take to get the steel to non-magnetic in the woodstove?

[crashdive123]

Oh - and don't forget to draw out some of that hardness with a tempering cycle. I tempered mine (x2) at 450 for two hours and then let cool to room temp.

[klkak]

Warmed motor oil is great. Tranny fluid or olive oil (warmed) also do a nice job. Most any water or oil cooled steels thin enough to be a knife will harden just fine with an oil quench. How long did it take to get the steel to non-magnetic in the woodstove?

I don't know that it was non-magnetic. It got so hot it started to bend under its own weight. I took it out and let it cool slowly. After that it was soft enough to grind on. I wish I had the equipment to put a hollow grind on it.

By the way what kind of steel are files made of?

Also, I read Pancho talking about placing a blade between blocks of dry ice. What exactly does that do?

[crashdive123]

If it's a USA made file, most likely it's 1095.

Depending on the type of steel, either a liquid or an air quench is called for. I don't recall Panch0's dry ice post, but for example when I use A2 or D2 they require an air quench. To do that I remove them from the oven and quickly place between two heavy pieces of aluminum angle that are in a vice. The aluminum quickly transfers the heat and by clamping in a vice you prevent the steel from warping.

[canid]

a note on files, and cheap files in particular is that the more aggressive the cut [larger and more robust the teeth] the easier it is to case harden reliably, and in some cases; the more likely that is what was done.

nicholson 4 in hand [4 way rasps] seems to be hardenable steel, even though it is not meant to use on metal and they could just as easily have gone cheap. i salute that.

[Camp10]

The dry ice is for a cryo step. It is done between tempers with stainless and some alloy carbon steels. Liquid nitrogen is the prefered ingredient but lots of makers use dry ice and then "quench" in room temp water. For your file steel, it isnt a necessary step.

I would have agreed with Crash about the file being 1095 not that long ago but a maker I know told me the other day that most American files are W-2. I think like most tools (including knives), there is a pretty good selection of steels that can be used for a file. As Canid pointed out, cheeper Chinese files can just be case hardenend and that would be useless as a knife.

One more thing, you should use a magnet and try to keep your temps close to critical..some steels need to go slightly above for full hardness but if you quench your knife when it is hot enough to bend under it's own weight, you will either have a cracked peice of steel or a grain pattern so large, you can see it without magnification.

[mosquitomountainman]

Have you ever used a convex grind on a knife. I used one last spring and liked it. It seemed to make a good grind for a general purpose blade. Especially when whittling fuzz sticks or batoning to split wood or bow staves the convex grind seemed to work better. It took a nice edge too. I don't think I'd want one in a blade thicker than 1/8 inch though. (But then I'm not a fan of thick blade knives.)

[klkak]

I don't recall the brand name of the file but I'm guessing it was over 20 years old.

[kyratshooter]

[QUOTE=crashdive123;278776]If it's a USA made file, most likely it's 1095.

QUOTE]


I do not mean to start a "thing", but most all the good quality files by Nicolson and Black Diamond are O2. It is the cheap chineese files that are case hardened, and worthless for knifemaking.

The heat, above red color, is not what anneals the file, it is the slow cooling that does the trick. I used to heat them to "good and hot" and bury them in a bucket of sand I kept by the forge for that purpose.

If you want 1095 from scrap you need to find a good Stanley or Craftsman wood chisel or laythe tool. They are actually 1086 but so close to 1095 one can not tell the difference for practical purposes.

[Camp10]

posted by kyratshooter: I do not mean to start a "thing", but most all the good quality files by Nicolson and Black Diamond are O2. It is the cheap chineese files that are case hardened, and worthless for knifemaking.[/

Actually, O-1 and O-2 are steels that I can easily rule out as file steels. You can dig very deep into Google and not find a reference for it but if you dont trust that, just try to etch a hamon into a knife made from a Nicolson file (and treated differentially)...it comes out beautiful! O-1 and O-2 have to much manganese to get a hamon. They are most likely a 10XX, W-1 or W-2. If you know different, please share your source.

[kyratshooter]

Got my info from a couple of engineers that worked for Stanly Tool Co. and Telidine and I had already heard it so I took their word as fact.

The first person that told me files were O1-O2 was Bo Randal back in some corispondence I had with him long years ago, way back in the '60s. He said all his carbon blades were O1 as a carryover from when he was forging his first blades out of files. He did not want to change the blade properties and O1-O2 was easy to heat treat consistantly.

[Camp10]

If I can get to Pete's shop (and he hasnt sold it yet) I will get a picture of the hamon he has on a knife that still says "Nicolson" on it...that is proof enough for me that they cant be o-1 or o-2. I know that Randal knives were O-1 (they are a different alloy now)but in the book, Randall made knives, he says he started with leaf springs.

Also, W-1, W-2 or 1095 would be an easier heat treat then either O-1 or O-2 and 5160 (leaf spring) is even easier then those.

[kyratshooter]

A trip through the internet has enlightened me wounderously.

The closest thing you will get to information requarding content of product is a word from the secretaty and a request to not call back for propritary information.

I have found that no one knows what anything they have is and you can get ten different heat treat instructions from any ten people on the same chunk of iron.

That O1-O2 requires simply dipping in oil and oven tempering, or a 10 step process and 1095 requires 10-15 steps for normalizing to stress relieving or simply dumping on the forge and air cooling. 1095 is also requarded as air quenching, oil quenching or brine quenching and either does or does not require stress relieving depending on how many beers the guy on knife forums had that night.

I now have two different sets of instructions on handling 1095 from two different steel manufacturers.

I have also been informed that one can not make a decient blade from O1, thought Randal has for 75 years. That every saw blade is made from L7 and the worlds best knives are forged from the left rear axle shaft of a Russian BMP. I know all this to be true because I found it on the internet!

I am also in the quandry that the files I have been treating as O2 for 40 years and have been tempering as such and doing fine are now 1095, may actually require a more complicated process, or a much simpler process, and may or may not ever hold an edge again. In addition all the knives I have made in the past should self distruct at any moment.

I am truly seeing why the forgers of metal were called blacksmiths. It was not because they were dirty all the time, or the metal turned black when they worked it. It was because their craft was a by-guess and by-gosh art form closer to alcamey or a witches brew than knowledge that could be passed from one to another. They were witches practicing a black art and everyone stayed out of the shop while they were hammering for a reason. They could turn you into a gimlet.

I am now going to get into the Jeep and go for a drive, searching for old hay rakes in the abandoned fields of local farmers. I have been forging blades from hay rake tines for 30 years and have had excellent results. I do not know what it is. I do not care what it is. I only know that I can heat it to cherry red, dip it in oil and stick it in the oven at 350 degrees for any length of time the nap lasts and it will work.

Now my head hurts.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Now my head hurts.

Shouldn't have called Blacksmiths "Witches", now they've done put a curse on you, and have one pounding on the inside of your head for bad mouthing them!!!

[klkak]

Sounds like I should send my knife blank to an "ex-spert" and let them take care of all the complicated stuff!

[kyratshooter]

Shouldn't have called Blacksmiths "Witches", now they've done put a curse on you, and have one pounding on the inside of your head for bad mouthing them!!!

I know the counter curse. I have held a masters rating with ABANA since 1995. Worked in the forge full time while I was in grad school and did my masters degree intership as a blacksmith in a historic village. Everything we used was pre-1800 so there was a lot of eyeball work and following the old traditions and little technical detail. Everything we did was done in the forge, often at night so we could see the colors better. Can you imagine what that looked like through the cracks in a shop wall? Metal glowing, sparks flying, steam sizzling out of a vat of oil. Flames igniting from the oil when the metal hit it. It's a wonder they wern't all burned at the stake!

I turned out knives by the dozen while there. Lots of international visitors and I wound up with several knives in every couintry of Europe, a couple in Russia, one in each South American nation, several in Australia. I had at least one knife on each continent except Antartica. Only thing I can be assured of is that I was selling them too cheap!

The Europeans may be restricted in gun ownership but they sure like their bushcraft knives.

[Camp10]

KyRat, if your trying to discredit my knowledge as a knifemaker, so be it. If you are a mastersmith, answer this...why does a file take a hamon? Both O-1 and O-2 have to high amounts of Mn to get one.

This brings me to the only other point I care to make, the reason you have been getting good results for the past 40 years with files is because you are actually treating them as a simple steel. Getting the metal red hot then dipping in oil will get a usable treatment out of w-1 or w-2 and 1095 if you are fast getting it to the oil. O-1 needs a soak time of 15 minutes at 1500* and really benefits from normalizing cycles. I can do it with a gas forge (although not as good as if I used my kiln) by placing the blade in a pipe to keep it out of direct heat and watching the blade very carefully.

BTW, a hay rake is a good choice. Simple steel like that can be done with very primitive methods. Have a nice nap while you temper it!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

How many survivalists does it take to make a knife from a file?

Klak, just go with what Crash and Camp said and you will have a usable tool. Results will vary, but it will be usable if you get close to what has been recommended.

Metallurgy is a science, making a knife from a file isn't.

I use Mineral Spirits for the purchased "known" 1095, not oil still it works. Like Camp said get it quenched quickly.