Precious Metals for Shooting

[kyratshooter]

Got out the casting gear the other night and found I was down on the lead supply. Went on a scrounging expidition and after a couple of days I obtained a good supply. I will be getting more in rapid order. They do not want to sell to individuals any more.

Due to these concerns I am now the proud owner of a custom made fishing lure company. Yes I have a mold for Crappie jigs.

I was getting real antsey after the first day. I had never had problems with lead supply in the past. But it has been a long time between buys. I snagged a 55 gallon barrel of wheel weights back in '95 and have just finished them off.

I paid 10 cents a pound for that barrel. I paid fifty cents a pound today.

I will buy another 100 pounds on payday and I will probably be set for several years. I get 50 9mm slugs pp/ 45 .38 slugs/35 .45 slugs, somewhere around that.

I wonder if my utility trailer would haul a half ton?

[hunter63]

Lead used to be a easy metal to come by, we used it in a metal patenting process at a factory, in a previous life.
I would buy truck loads at a time, 100# bars, 5K on a pallet and ship "dross" from the process back. Pure lead.

Furnace operators whose job it was to load wire on one end, take off wire at the other end and basically sit there and watch it the rest of the time.

If you had a mold, they would pour what ever you wanted as something to do.
We did have to stop "down-rigger weights @ 25# each, though.

I have had some luck with a couple of local tire shops, one gets $20 bucks a 5 gal bucket, the other just gives it away, but likes to spread it out.

When asked what I used it for, I just showed him a .357 wad-cutter and he said , Lets go see what we got.
He just doesn't like it to be sold by the person that picks it up.

So, I guess I didn't really know what prices are, except from supply houses, but I thinking that $.50 a pound might still be a good buy.

I do keep my eyes open, but have enough for now, of both WW lead and pure lead.

I do believe the both brass and lead will indeed be considered "Precious metals" more and more.

I kinda have to laugh when considering a new caliber, "asset" as the price would have to include ammo, brass, primers, dies, molds, gas checks,(sometimes) sizing dies, scopes, slings, cases.........well, you know.

[kyratshooter]

If I had it to do all over again I would start out shooting the .40s&w. A .40 compact autopistol and a .40 S&W revolver and I would feel well equipped for general purposes. I will probably never have one just due to the "price" of ownership. As you stated, the gun is just the start.

I'll just have to plug along using Mix and match .32/.357/.38/.45 stuff along with the odd .380 and 9mm when the spirit moves me.

I did buy dies for the Mosin. I got to checking and measuring and i can load the .303 enfield brass on the same dies. I can back the die off a 1/4 turn and necksize the Enfield brass and do the same for seating. I already do that with my -06. I load all them on .308 dies.

A lot of these dies will be unused as long as surplus ammo for the Mosin is as cheap as it is.

[hunter63]

My favorite for playing after the .22's, are the .357, followed by the .44 mag. (couple of the .44 carbines, to complement the Black hawks).

Not big on auto's, but a double stack mag makes a good retreat cover, point back, start spraying and haul butte.

The long shooters are all set up, but I don't spend a lot of time shooting them, just a preseason try out, then what ever season is being hunted.

The Mosins, I did buy a Lee Loader for it, but surplus though cheap, is tough to reload with the old priming system.

Watching for more modern brass....

I guess I could get the reamers and such, but like you said, ammo still cheap...and makes them fun to shoot....smoke, fireballs....yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

BTW...... I just checked the winter Midway catalog, most lead and alloys are about $3 bucks +/- a pound.

[NightShade]

You can get 25 lb. lead bars from lot of plumbing supply houses... I dont reload ammo , but have always been interested by the notion... I dont know if you need a specific purity but i have always used that lead for making fishing weights...
I always thought lead was lead, but as i said, have no experience reloading.

[hunter63]

My rule of thumb is pure lead (or almost pure), soft--round balls, mini/Maxi balls, low speed pistol bullets, shot gun slugs. Relatively slow speeds, to 1000 fps.

Wheel weights /linotype, may have tin, antimony or other metals, for a harder alloy.

Pistol, and slower rifle, bullets, up to about 1600fps, faster up to 2000 fps, gas checks/paper patching, help with barrel leading.
This may be argued by some, but it's what I use.

There is a lot more to it than this, so if you want to start casting bullets, need to study up on alloys, speeds, heat treating, gas checking, paper patching as well as mold/bullets, melt/pour temps, types of bullets etc.

And if unsure of alloy, Brinell hardness testing is a good idea, and will tell you what you have and what you can use it for.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ness/index.asp

[Born2Late]

A friend of mine bought a .50cal. muzzle loader the othet day.After trying round balls and maxi balls he bought a box of Barnes points which were very accurate but very expensive.He has a engineering shop and made himself points from mild steel.It is the same spitzer shape as the Barnes but .5 grain heavier.I have no experience with muzzle loaders.Will the change from lead to mild steel damage the gun and will it be dangerous.He is using Sanadex not black powder.I want to help him before he kills himself.He is one of those leap before you look kind of people.

[hunter63]

A friend of mine bought a .50cal. muzzle loader the othet day.After trying round balls and maxi balls he bought a box of Barnes points which were very accurate but very expensive.He has a engineering shop and made himself points from mild steel.It is the same spitzer shape as the Barnes but .5 grain heavier.I have no experience with muzzle loaders.Will the change from lead to mild steel damage the gun and will it be dangerous.He is using Sanadex not black powder.I want to help him before he kills himself.He is one of those leap before you look kind of people.

NO< NO< NO.
Tell him just to put it down and walk away carefully........
Then when he has read/studied everything about muzzleloaders and fire arms in general, maybe, just maybe, he might be able to not kill himself.

Quote>
He has a engineering shop (?????) and made himself points from mild steel.It is the same spitzer shape as the Barnes but .5 grain heavier. <Quote
I gotta say, he should know better.

Good luck.

[kyratshooter]

A friend of mine bought a .50cal. muzzle loader the othet day.After trying round balls and maxi balls he bought a box of Barnes points which were very accurate but very expensive.He has a engineering shop and made himself points from mild steel.It is the same spitzer shape as the Barnes but .5 grain heavier.I have no experience with muzzle loaders.Will the change from lead to mild steel damage the gun and will it be dangerous.He is using Sanadex not black powder.I want to help him before he kills himself.He is one of those leap before you look kind of people.

When I see posts like this my mean streak comes out. My first impulse is to say "I don't know, try it and see!"

Then the humanitarian side fights and claws nearly to the surface and makes me soft.

There are several reason steel is not a good projectile material.

First, if the projectile is steel it should be LIGHTER than the lead bronze projectile of the same size. Something is not right according to the periodioc chart of the elments as we know it today.

Second, if this is a saboted bullet there will be no difference, except in performance. The steel will not have the range or accuracy of the actual bullet. Saboted rounds of all types of metal are used in weapons technology today, including depleated uranium.

Third, if it is not a saboted round he will never get the bullet started in the bore or seated on the charge. If the diameter is reduced enough to load the round it will not bite the rifling and accuracy will be horrid. Even the steel projectiles in surplus military rounds are coated on the surface to protect the bores of the rifles.

Fourth, Like most engineers, this man has no practical knowledge of math in reguard to finances. I would estimate the drafting time, setup time, tooling time and finish time at around 6 hours for the first bullet.

If the poor guy was working at Mc Donalds he could have bought a full box of any bullet on the market for six hours of burger flipping time. At a normal pay rate for an engineer he could buy a box for 1/2 hour regular work time.

If he is using CNC equipment the following bullets will come off the machine at a rapid rate, but how many will he use each year? And no one will buy them, making this a for profit venture.

Why will they not buy the rounds? Mild steel will not expand on impact. It is not as good at its job as pure lead, and espically not as good and a bullet engineered to expand in a controlled manner, like the Barnes.

fifth, Your "friend" is also on the fringes of the law. This round would be considered a .50 cal armor piercing round. Steel, bronze and other exotic metals with AP ablities are specifically targeted by ATF. they have this fear thing going in reguard to things that will penetrate their body armor, cars, samll tanks, etc.

[flandersander]

Hmm.... I can see it now. The army being attacked by davy crocket shooting armor piercing rounds....

[crashdive123]

Well, one good thing is that I don't think even the ATF can reach him down in South Africa. Of course, ever since the Firearms Control Act was passed down there, I thought rocks had to be registered.

[kyratshooter]

Hmm.... I can see it now. The army being attacked by davy crocket shooting armor piercing rounds....

All it takes is one.

I don't want to be that one, but that is all it takes.

"Well Sgt, we were tooling along just fine and some redneck jumped out from behind a bush and popped us with a BP rifle and knocked out the engine. Then when we got out to fix the thing a bunch of them started shooting at us with compound bows. Sure is a good thing this ain't Afganistan and rules of engagement don't apply. We killed them all."

[Rick]

"Rules of Engagement". I've always marveled at that nomenclature. I've always thought it would be kick the livin' shizz out of them before they do it to you but, apparently, politicians think differently. That's why I've ordered my own copy of "Diplomacy 101". I'll be polite some day.

[Born2Late]

Thanks for the feedback.Now I have to convince him not to use his creations.I thought something was wrong with his idea,thats why I asked.Muzzle loaders are not lisenced because they are not considered a threat here.It looks like they are only dangerous to "creative" users.

[NightShade]

My rule of thumb is pure lead (or almost pure), soft--round balls, mini/Maxi balls, low speed pistol bullets, shot gun slugs. Relatively slow speeds, to 1000 fps.

Wheel weights /linotype, may have tin, antimony or other metals, for a harder alloy.

Pistol, and slower rifle, bullets, up to about 1600fps, faster up to 2000 fps, gas checks/paper patching, help with barrel leading.
This may be argued by some, but it's what I use.

There is a lot more to it than this, so if you want to start casting bullets, need to study up on alloys, speeds, heat treating, gas checking, paper patching as well as mold/bullets, melt/pour temps, types of bullets etc.

And if unsure of alloy, Brinell hardness testing is a good idea, and will tell you what you have and what you can use it for.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ness/index.asp

Thanks for the tip hunter63!

[kyratshooter]

Thanks for the feedback.Now I have to convince him not to use his creations.I thought something was wrong with his idea,thats why I asked.Muzzle loaders are not lisenced because they are not considered a threat here.It looks like they are only dangerous to "creative" users.

Legally it is much the same here.

I'll tell you what you can encourage you friend to do that will work.

Have him make you some bullet molds.

They can be cut on a lathe with regular boring tools or they can be milled on a milling machine.

I wish I still had access to a machine shop. I have dozens of projects on hold that I need percision tools to finish.

Cast from soft lead like H63 was saying and they will work great on anything up to 300-400 pounds. I would switch to the hard wheel weight metal for anything bigger. More penetration.

You can check the internet for styles. Thompson Center makes a bore sized slug as does Lee. Either would be an easy job for a skilled machcine worker and I am sure difficult to order from SA.

[Born2Late]

I made him a copy of a add from our local hunting magazine(Man Magnum) of a Lee mould and melting pot.Through his business he has acsess to a lot of tyre copanies with buckets full of wheel weights.I also think going lead would be safer and easier.
He wants to shoot a giraffe bul next weekend that is why he is experimenting.I phoned around and found him bullets from CVA in 250 and 295gr.The salesman told me they are in the same class as Barnes.I dont know the brand.Personally I use only Sierra bullets in my 7x57.There are better but they work for me.Thanks again for the inputs.

[Ole WV Coot]

I reckon I must be old. When I was working we had a lot of lead sheath cable and splice cases. I learned to wipe lead sleeves with molten lead and a pad. As we cut out lead sleeves we replaced with plastic and yours truly had a couple of ton of good lead. I still have a "company" melting pot somewhere. I only cast practice ammo now, a few fishing jigs. I "loaned" my son all my stuff years ago and don't cast now. He took and I gave away all the lead and I don't load handloads for self defense. Factory ammo isn't questioned by LEOs but if you roll your own they may get you the same as using those "Black Talons" that everyone has a few boxes stashed.

[kyratshooter]

BTL I also favor the 7x57 and load Sierras in the heavier weights. My rifle is a reworked Mauser and still has the 1-9 twist barrel. It is deadly accurate at any normal, and some abnormal ranges.


Coot, the trick with reloads for defense is to use once fired brass, of uniform headstamp. There are so many ammo choices out there LE would never know the difference. Wallmart has about 15 kinds of 9mm, 4-5 of .357 and a half dozen .45 choices. With some of the buzz-saw rounds available over the counter today why would they care.

I used to reload for one of my LE friends. He was restricted to issue ammo. Forced to carry 158 jhp .38spl (that could not possibly expand) in a perfectly good Ruger Security Six. We would pull the bullets and load them to full .357 specs, about 1300fps. He would mark the primers with magic marker and load his first two rounds up with the good stuff, then 4 of his issue loads. He knew he was always going to use the first two and the evidence would be gone.

[Born2Late]

Like you predicted the bullets wasnt very accurate.The guy couldnt even hit the wetpack from 50m.In the end he bought another box of solids from the gunshop to shoot the giraffe with.It weight 1200kg.