Question and comments for you metal workers.

**hunter63** · 08-09-2010, 01:45 PM

Had a conversation with a couple of blacksmiths last week end.
I was wonder if any of you had ever heard about "keeping your work on a North/south alignment"?
The other blacksmith said he never heard of it, but I saw that he did have his anvil lined up that way.

Guy I was talking to was telling me, that if you keep your work lined up with the magnetic N/S poles, it will come out better, with less stress cracks?

Anyone ever heard of this or just a Old Blacksmiths tale?

Did find out that he uses the tines from old "drop tine hay rakes" (spring steel)for making fire steels, gets about 6 per tine.
Also when tempering, only heat to real dull red before water quenching, gradually, in a circular motion w/ the N/S alignment.

They work very well, as we were planing with a bunch that he had made and was selling for $10 bucks each.

He was also selling hawks ($45 bucks) made from old farriers rasps, made by a friend of his:
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You can still see the teeth on a couple.

**klickitat** · 08-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Myth! Work your steel hot and you will not have problems.

**Camp10** · 08-09-2010, 04:17 PM

Now this is only a guess....if you line your smithy up north/south then the sun will never shine directly on your work and so if you are judging the heat of the steel by the color, it might be more consistant all day long.

I think it is myth but that might be the basis.

**gryffynklm** · 08-09-2010, 06:13 PM

Camp 10 might be right about that. Print shops in Elizabethan England liked to put the press on a North wall with windows because it gave an even amount of light and kept the shop from getting too hot in the summer. It also prevented the dampened paper they printed on from drying too quickly before printing. My smithy doors face north and reading color is no problem. My son worked in a shop facing west and the sun in the evening would shine in. He stands with his back to the west to shadow the piece to check color before working the iron. This took an extra wasted step to turn around get to the anvil.
I tried to find something on line about this but couldn't. If I find any thing I'll post it.

**COWBOYSURVIVAL** · 08-09-2010, 06:19 PM

I have read it in many metallurgy articles can't recall it being applied to working material, but it is referred to in some part of the process. It really can be rocket science if you want it to be. Me I am no rocket scientist. Seams like it was mentioned annealing.

**welderguy** · 08-09-2010, 06:37 PM

I have never heard of that.

**randyt** · 08-09-2010, 06:37 PM

I've only heard using the north south alignment during the quench.

**klickitat** · 08-09-2010, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by randyt

I've only heard using the north south alignment during the quench.

Is that true North and what about declination?

**randyt** · 08-09-2010, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by klickitat

Is that true North and what about declination?

i've only heard about it, there was no elaboration on the process.

**klickitat** · 08-09-2010, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by randyt

i've only heard about it, there was no elaboration on the process.

I was just yanking your chain.

I have been a black smith for 15 year, a millwright fabricator for 12. I built custom knives for years until it ruined my hobby. My little brother is the melt man for a major specialty foundry (military supplier). I have my own machine shop in the garage and built high performance engines for years including for UAV's.

If there was any validity to that, bear oil or any other goofy thing that some blacksmith tries to sell, everyone would know about it.

Yes there have been some super secret quench techniques over the millenniums. The thing is though, once you learn what is happening on a chemical or molecular level then you can duplicate it with other ingredients.

An example: Quenching in Ox blood. In the past when steel was poor some blacksmiths would quench their steel in ox blood. They would tell people it had magical properties. What was happening was nothing more than a form of case hardening. The hot metal would burn the blood and it created carbon that would migrate into the steel. This was very slight, but if you could show any gain then you had a marketing gimmick.

With the development of steel things that seem to have an advantage in olden days have been negated. So instead of case hardening steel now they just had massive amounts (in comparison) of carbon when they make it.

I hope I explained why I think it is bunk and that I did not come off harsh. I only posted in the aim of adding to the conversation.

**randyt** · 08-09-2010, 10:03 PM

I think it's bunk too. if I remember right I think I read somewhere that the japanese sword makers quenched north and south. sometimes I read so much it becomes a blur. so I have to rely on what works for me and in my little shop it's simple carbon steels and a ammo can full of olive oil for a quench.

**Winter** · 08-09-2010, 11:37 PM

beautiful hawks. Just wanted to be included in the thread.

**Camp10** · 08-10-2010, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by klickitat

Is that true North and what about declination?

Thats funny!

The steel wouldnt know if it was north/south or east/west or anything in between because it is non-magnetic when it is at forging temps...

**hunter63** · 08-10-2010, 10:25 AM

Well, guys, I just thought I would throw it out there............knowing the buck-skinners (blacksmiths were at rendezvous) have been known to "yarn a bit", particularly to pilgrims. Been known to do that myself from time to time.

Most likely, there would be just enough, possible truth, to lend some merit or at least make it plausible.
I thought it was intresting...........

**canid** · 08-10-2010, 12:26 PM

there hasn't been a grave shortage of superstition interlaced through many of the older crafts either.

**kyratshooter** · 08-21-2010, 12:54 AM

In ancient times the blacksmiths were requarded with as much fear as the witches. They were just too valuable to burn at the stake. There is a lot of superatition involved with the craft and the smiths promoted it to preserve their status.

**Erratus Animus** · 08-21-2010, 08:38 AM

Dont know about you guys, but i use a special rock the will spark just the right size 3 times to light my charcoal forge. It is the secret of my steels magical properties!

LMAO, I have heard everything from North -South to the age of the tree used for charcoal.

The metal used, how long its at critical temp, skill of the smith in relation to keeping the grain inline,method of quench as well as the quenchant, and the normalizing,quenching, tempering temps and cycles effect the finished product.

Steel was a very valuable thing. Infact they would burn the house down when moving to get the nails. Also alot of the artifact we are presented with are very very thin in nature. This is not just from the rust as we have well preserved pieces, but because as little metal is used as possible. This results in thin pieces that will warp easily if handled incorrectly when quenched.

Hope this helps