Internal or external frame pack?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Internal frame or pack board. External framed packs have the drawbacks of both.

[grizz]

I have both. They both have their time and place. External Frame: great for heavy loads, great for back packing if you stay on the trail. They don't give you the mobility if your going cross country. You don't have the balance. Your back doesn't sweat as much with the external. They typically weight more. you can't cram them to fit some places. The internal frame fit closer to your body giving you better mobility and center of gravity. Typically weigh less. If your an extreme light weight back packer these are the only pack to use. My extreme pack weighs in at 23 lbs minus food and water. Most of my gear will weigh more than the average persons as i'm 6'3" 325 lbs. But with a 35 LB pack i can go for a week in a area with water available. A friend of mine hase his pack minus food and water down to 17 lbs. thats pack, bag and tent and all the gear and clothes. The most important thing is figure how big a bag you need, load it with all the gear you will need and put it on and have a friend assist you in making sure it is sized properly to fit you. it can take a couple of hours to do this, because you need to hike around a little and make adjustments as you go. When we get a new scout they all claim their pack is just right, and never once was it sized properly. My 2 Cents

[sgtdraino]

I would like some tips on proper sizing. I know with some external frame packs, you can raise and lower the attachment point of the shoulder straps, and consequently raise and lower where the waist belt rests. I don't see that option on either my medium ALICE or my internal frame pack. Tips on getting a pack to fit properly?

[Rick]

There are a few adjustments on the Alice. You raise or lower the pack and/or frame with the shoulder straps. The lower belt or kidney pad has a turnbuckle in the back of it. Use it to move the frame into or away from your back. The tighter you adjust the turnbuckle the flatter the pad will be. Guys with small waist (of which I ain't) should loosen the buckle to allow the pad to curve around your back and fit against the small of your back.

That's about it for the Alice.

[justin_baker]

The alice is horrible for some people because of its lack of a suspension system.

[finallyME]

I consider the old ALICE a combination of internal and external. The frame is too small to be considered an external, and the frame is outside, so not internal. It can carry a lot of weight off the shelf, and even more with a few mods.

[sgtdraino]

The alice is horrible for some people because of its lack of a suspension system.

I recently read that ALICE is essentially designed for someone that is 5'10", and that if you're any taller than that, it sucks big time.

Fortunately, I am 5'10"

I consider the old ALICE a combination of internal and external. The frame is too small to be considered an external, and the frame is outside, so not internal. It can carry a lot of weight off the shelf, and even more with a few mods.

I've been reading an ALICE mod thread on another forum that is really starting to get me enthusiastic about this pack. We'll see!

[Rick]

This should answer some question on the Alice for you.

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm

[sgtdraino]

This should answer some question on the Alice for you.

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm

Thanks! Reading it now. I've decided to try Enforcer's "Hellcat" mod described here:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...t=47472&page=2

It's basically an ALICE pack and frame mated to a MOLLE suspension system and kidney belt, with a MOLLE Modular Sleep System carrier slung on the bottom. I've heard some pretty good feedback about it. All the components I don't yet have are on their way to me now. Looking forward to trying it out!

[Rick]

That's pretty close to the mod I made on mine. I changed out the shoulder straps and waist pad to the new Molle. Made a huge difference in comfort. I removed the vertical center bar (strap metal) on the Alice frame in order to attach the shoulder straps. I like the way he used the horizontal bar but I think I'd put in some type of padding to keep the Molle strap from being worn (cut) from use. Tape the metal or something to try and soften it. I went straight to the bottom bar to attach mine. Frankly, I haven't noticed any difference in frame stability other than I dropped a few ounces. I thought I might lose some rigidity but that hasn't been the case. I held on to the vertical bar just in case.

[klickitat]

I use all three; external, internal and frame-less. It really depends on what I am carrying and for how long.

If I am packing in for extended trips, I like a external. I like to be able to drop the pack and use the frame as a pack board in some situations, like when hunting big game.

I like an internal frame if I am just camping for a couple days or on a fishing trip.

I mostly use frame-less packs for the occasional day trip and for my emergency bag in the blazer.

[sgtdraino]

That's pretty close to the mod I made on mine. I changed out the shoulder straps and waist pad to the new Molle. Made a huge difference in comfort.

I feel like the biggest problem I have with the ALICE, is that on me, the frame only barely rises to the height of my shoulders, when the kidney belt is secured where it is supposed to be. I feel like this is not properly keeping weight off my shoulders and distributing it down to the waist like it is supposed to.

When I secured the MOLLE kidney belt, I had hoped that it would cause the frame to ride a bit higher. Instead, I feel like the frame rides even lower than before! I ended up doing a quick-and-dirty mod with my Dremel, and now instead of the pack resting directly on the kidney belt attachment straps, it instead rests on the plastic panel that the belt straps are attached to. This makes it ride a bit higher, and I THINK it helps. But I won't know for sure until I really take it out and test it for a long period of time.

Enforcer insists that the MOLLE shoulder straps offer "suspension" that distributes weight off the shoulders, but for the life of me I am not seeing or feeling how this works, if the top of the frame where the straps are attached does not rise over the top of your shoulders. It seems to me that, if the top of the frame is at or below shoulder level, there is no solution that is going to keep the weight of the pack from pressing the shoulder straps down on the top of your shoulders, which is not what is supposed to happen with an external frame pack.

Am I missing something?

[finallyME]

Am I missing something?

No. But, have you loaded it up yet with weight? That might confirm your suspicions.

[sgtdraino]

Oh yeah. With the latest mods it feels okay, but wearing it around the house for 10 minutes is not the same as hiking a couple of miles with it on. We'll see!

Rick, you've got the same MOLLE strap mod. How high does your frame rise to? Does it rise up higher than your shoulders? I still feel like I must be missing something, because I've heard from folks considerably taller than me, who insist that the MOLLE strap mod worked for them. I keep thinking that maybe I somehow don't have it adjusted right, or it works in some way that I'm just not understanding yet.

[sgtdraino]

BUMP 'cause I never heard back from Rick!

Also, I think I've decided that I still don't have sufficient suspension on the frame, because it doesn't go up high enough. My latest scheme is to do what the Airborne did, and replace the aluminum frame with a modified Enduroflex frame from Outdoor Products. Should be lighter, more comfortable, more durable, and give me sufficient suspension.

I hope!

[finallyME]

Keep us posted. I just bought the MOLLE frame and suspension (no bag). I plan to either use the MOLLE frame, or a commercial one I have had for years.

[sgtdraino]

Keep us posted. I just bought the MOLLE frame and suspension (no bag). I plan to either use the MOLLE frame, or a commercial one I have had for years.

I'm interested to hear more about this: You think you can adapt your MOLLE frame to use with an ALICE bag?

What sort of commercial frame do you plan to use? Will you have to modify it much?

I hope to get the Enduroflex very soon. Maybe even today! Updates as they come.

[finallyME]

I don't plan to use an ALICE bag at all. I am making a simple duffel bag type bag with a simple top opening, no zipper. I will use straps and strap it to the frame. As soon as I finish making the bag, I will post pictures. The other frame I have is an old aluminum external frame I got for $5 at a garage sale when I was 11. I used it all through scouts (the pack was complete then). I took the bag off of it, along with any straps. I have already tried putting the MOLLE suspension on it, and I think it will work. The MOLLE suspension is very versatile. In fact that is why I got it. I was looking for suspension for this frame and thought the MOLLE might be a cheap option.

[Winter]

I adventured for years in a blue leather frameless pack. Suckage.

I did the alice pack for many yrs. I eventually got a frameless and very expensive tactical pack and uused it for maybe 7-8 yrs.

I now use a med alice. It is a very good pack and I'm used to it's shortcomings.

External for me.

[sgtdraino]

My latest scheme is to do what the Airborne did, and replace the aluminum frame with a modified Enduroflex frame from Outdoor Products. Should be lighter, more comfortable, more durable, and give me sufficient suspension.

Keep us posted.

I think it's just about perfect.

I don't think the frames are available by themselves, I basically got the cheapest Outdoor Products frame pack I could find, that came with that Enduroflex frame. For me, that was the Dragonfly.

This thing is ABSOLUTELY FRICKIN FANTASTIC. Once I got it, I basically just took a dremel tool and cut down the top of the frame until it was narrow enough to fit into the frame pocket on the ALICE (this was the scariest part, as I knew there was no going back). Once that was done, I swear it's almost like the thing is made to work with an ALICE, as well as an MSS sleep system carrier bag for the bottom, and the MOLLE kidney belt. All the attachment points are very intuitive. "Oh! That can go on there! Perfect!" I was even able to use my original ALICE straps, which I like better than the MOLLE straps (those pinch my neck a little) or the stock straps the Dragonfly came with. There are three different heights at which you can attach the kidney belt to the frame, and I had plenty of leeway. I ended up using the "middle" point. I swear, I think this thing is perfect. Of course a long hike is the real test, but wearing it around fully-loaded just feels "right," a lot more "right" than the original frame ever did.

I'll try to get some pics up soon.