Long range shooting

[flandersander]

So I've been doing a little looking around the yard, and found there's a deer trail about a hundred yards behind my shop. So This year, instead of driving and walking around, I'll sit out on my deck and wait for the deer to come to me. The only problem is, I attempted to sight in my 243 at that distance, and had a terrible grouping. Let's just say I wouldn't feel confident in making an ethical shot at that distance. So Now I'm shopping around for a rifle that can shoot 500 comfortably, with the capability to "reach out and touch" a game animal at a maximum of 700 yards. I was looking at the remington 700, but they're so damn expensive. Maybe there's something I can do to my gun to get the acuarcy? I'm currently shooting a savage model 99 in .243.

[Rick]

Two words. Mosin Nagant.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=12

[Sourdough]

With the proper set-up expect 3" to 5" group at 700 yards. However it will be cheaper, to just walk closer to the deer, or put some deer groceries at 150 Yards from the front door.

[2dumb2kwit]

Have you tried different kinds of ammo? Every gun is different, but some will be completely different animals, with different ammo.

My mini-14 is a good example. Mini-14's are not known for their accuracy, but with ammo that it likes, I have shot a five shot 1.125" group, at 100 yards. With a kind of ammo that it didn't like, (same day, same distance, etc.) I couldn't keep all five shots on paper. (12"x12")

[2dumb2kwit]

Two words. Mosin Nagant.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=12

They are a lot of bang, for the buck, ain't they? LOL

[Rick]

I get it! Bang for the Buck...Bang for the deer!

[flandersander]

I definately don't get that kind of groupings. Maybe it's the scope. I was considering getting a new one. Any reccomendations? 80 bucks, what's up with that? LoL

[Rick]

Three of them quietly slipped in while the wife wasn't watching.

[rebel]

I definately don't get that kind of groupings. Maybe it's the scope. I was considering getting a new one. Any reccomendations? 80 bucks, what's up with that? LoL

Check your ammo and get a Leupold scope.

[kyratshooter]

You have not defined the bad grouping, or your sighting in method, or if you had prior experience using the rifle and a reasonable expectation.

Most gun shops will bore sight a rifle for $10 and it will be on paper @100 yards. Saves a lot of ammo. It also means that you start the process with a gun already capable of hitting a deer at 100 yards. The actual shooting is for fine tuning the POI.

You have also gone from a 100 yard shot to a 500-700 yard expectation. Most people would consider a 500-700 yard game shot unethical as being outside the abilities of most gun/caliber/shooter combinations. We hear so much about 2,000 yard sniper hits these days we have decided that 500 yards is a close shot anyone can make with their off the shelf Wallmart rifle. It just ain't so.

MOA is not the norm for factory guns and factory ammo. Don't expect it. Industry standards are not that strict and 2-3 MOA is the norm in good bolt guns and factory ammo, in spite of the gun magazine writers forked tongues.

My MOA shooting is done using carefully brewed handloads in guns I have reworked carefully. It is also done off a beenchrest or prone supported under ideal conditions.

If your .243 has been shooting well and has stopped there is a reason. You need to find the reason, not buy a new gun.

I have used the .243 extensively over the years. It is one of the most inherently accurate cartridges I have delt with. Even the bad loads shoot acceptabley and the good loads are astounding.

[2dumb2kwit]

Exellent points, KRS.
Few guns are as good as their internet groupings.
Few guns are as bad as thier groupings in reality.

[flandersander]

Well, I have lots of experience with the rifle, the grouping was not on an 8x11 sheet of paper, and my sighting in method... Shoot a few and adjust. I could hit the paper on a lucky shot, but not consistantly. So maybe it's not possible for my little gun to be acurate at that distance? It shoots fine at distances around 200 yards. It's not that my gun isn't shooting acuratly anymore, it's that it us incapable of shooting the distance I'm after. As far as I can tell anyway.

[2dumb2kwit]

A lot of things start coming in to play, at those distances, but first, lets do some math. I agree with the numbers that KRS gave you. Those are realistic numbers.

Now let's say it's a 2 moa rifle. 2 moa, at 700 yards, is around a 14" group. 3 moa would be about a 21" group. This is assuming that you are a perfect shot, or the rifle is locked down in a bench rest, so that there is no "shooter error". It also assumes that you are compensating for bullet drop, and wind drift. (At those distances, these factors start becoming a much bigger issue.)

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I just want to be sure that you know, that shots at that distance are not easy.

[2dumb2kwit]

Oh....and I have to admit, I was thinking that you were talking about 100-150 yards, at first. I don't think a .243 has enough energy, out past 400 or 500 yards, for an ethical shot. The charts that I just looked at, show it dropping under 1000 ft/pounds at just past 400 yards. That may sound like plenty of power, but keep in mind that at that distance, shot placement may not be great.

[Sourdough]

I have a nice Stainless Steel Winchester Model 70 in .300 Ultra Mag. with a 26" Barrel and a 4.5 to 12 power (30MM tube) German #4 retical Leupold, pillar-block bedded, that I could sell you.

[tsitenha]

The rifle is accurate at 200yds but not at 100yds????? doesn't make sense or
unstable bullets... Kyratshooter has good words

The rifle makes the shot, the man is the X factor

Try shooting a lot of groups before adjusting the scope just to see if you can group on consistanly.

[crashdive123]

Well, I have lots of experience with the rifle, the grouping was not on an 8x11 sheet of paper, and my sighting in method... Shoot a few and adjust. I could hit the paper on a lucky shot, but not consistantly. So maybe it's not possible for my little gun to be acurate at that distance? It shoots fine at distances around 200 yards. It's not that my gun isn't shooting acuratly anymore, it's that it us incapable of shooting the distance I'm after. As far as I can tell anyway.

Get bigger targets so you can figure out where your bullets are going - until then you're just guessing.

[Sourdough]

OK.....I reread your original post. A Savage model 99 is subject to variable pressure on the SMALL Fore-end, any variable in the holding or shooting off a bench will effect the point of impact. It was never meant as a 700 yard firearm.

If you truly want a Cheap 700 yard firearm. Start with a Savage 110. They are butt-ugly, and I would not own one, because they are ugly, however they are cheap, have great triggers, and shoot well out of the box.

I suggest you study about ballistic co-efficient, and the things that go into the care and feeding of a 700 yard firearm. Another butt ugly firearm is the Remington model 788 which has rear locking lugs, again butt-ugly, and a very strong lock-up receiver (action).

[Rick]

Why do you find a 110 so ugly? Looks like a rifle to me.

[Sourdough]

Why do you find a 110 so ugly? Looks like a rifle to me.

Pre-1964 Winchester model 70 is a classic thing of beauty, the lines are aesthetically "PERFECT".

Rick, I love you........but all of your taste is in your mouth........you just don't understand firearms as a visual work of Classic ART. A Colt 1911 is Classic "ART"........Glock is Butt ugly, but goes bang every time. I love 1911's but I pack a Glock M-24.