BP Oil

[2dumb2kwit]

Ouch. I would like that money to stay here. (Oh, and Walmart imports most everything from China - That there is an enormous amount leaving).

I thought we were talking about oil, and energy, but if you want to go this direction, that's fine. I agree with you about wal-mart, but there is a huge difference. We choose to buy stuff from wal-mart. we are not forced to buy from them, because our gov't won't allow us to produce our own goods.

Don't you agree that choosing to do something, and being forced to dosomething, are two different things?

One reason we import our oil could be because we have all these environmental people who don't want oil rigs in national forests.

....or in the ocean, or in the frozen north, or coal mines in the mountains, etc., etc. We will never have a pristine world, as long as human inhabit it. You just can't have your cake, and eat it too. I would rather that we have control over the process. I think that we tend to care a little more, than a lot of other countries.
I present a solution: Stop driving all over the place! Let's buy local produce and meats, that weren't shipped thousands of miles before making it to you.

I agree with this, 100%. I've said many times, that the best thing we can do for our world, is stop wasting so dang much.

[2dumb2kwit]

Maybe.
But at some point we've got to get off our a$$es and do something. Sometimes doing ANYthing is better than doing nothing. Have to stop fiddling while Rome's burning, don't you think?

Who said anything about not doing anything? That sounds like the argument that people without information use.

And no....doing anything is not always better than doing nothing. If you're trying to put out a fire, pouring diesel fuel on it, is not better than leaving it alone.

I never said that we should do nothing. We need to build nuke power plants. We need to get natural gas from off the east coast, among other places, and start using that instead of oil, where practical. We need to work on clean coal tech. We need to work on wind generation tech. We need to work on solar tech. We need to work on battery tech. We need to work on the efficiency of existing power plants. The list goes on and on. There are plenty of good common sense things that can be done, without throwing diesel fuel on the fire.

[HeritageFarm]

2D - We are trying to sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil. What do you mean we can't grow our own food? I know lots who do.
Ben: Excellent, for doing that.
Back to oil...
2D: I think nuclear plants are too dangerous. If something bad happens, it would be many times worse than burning coal - not to mention getting all that reactive stuff is costly, and disposal is also very hazardous. Also, not many reactive things are in handydandy deposits.



We must be the change we want to see...

[huntermj]

I agree "we are the problem" we would never have become THE problem if we had'nt gone into mass production. Mass production of food, cars, houses, baby strollers and everthing else. The population would have remained stable and sustainable. Food would be local and organic, not mass produced GM seeds that cant produce food that can produce viable seeds. Yes we are animals who have strayed from the natural path of an animal. We have modified our enviroment to the breaking point. And its starting to break. Only this time its not a local event, its global.

[HeritageFarm]

Very well said, reminds me of a quote from Jeffery Smith on GMO's: "The mice wouldn't eat the GMO food. So, it is time for us to bring humans up to the level of animals!"

[Rick]

sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil

Not possible to get away from oil. Very few folks are autonomous. Everything you touch, even off grid, is in some way connected to oil.

we would never have become THE problem if we had'nt gone into mass production

Okay, I don't understand this at all. Population growth is tied to food availability, not the abundance of cars and houses.

@2D - When the technology was new there was a disparity in cost. In the 80's the cost of wind power was about 30 cents a kilowatt hour. Today, it's about 5 cents a kilowatt hour when you factor in the tax credits from the Production Tax Credit. Most of that is related to turbine design. However, I will concede that wind availability is a driving factor in cost. If your turbine turns in a 5 mph breeze it will produce much less electricity than a 10 mph breeze and the cost will be much higher.

As to backups, Indiana utilities utilize standby power plants on today's grid to balance need and production. As wind generation increases gas/coal generation must decrease to balance need/production. Since gas/coal plants already exist there isn't a need to build more. We would just utilize what we already have. The up side to that is that adding more wind (or solar) would reduce the need for coal/gas plants.

@ Sourdough - It's your job to eliminate about 2 billion folks. Start in China, please.

[huntermj]

Like i said in the compleate Quilifing sentance, mass production of food. And everything else.

[Rick]

I wasn't trying to take anything out of context. I just didn't understand your position on the other items with regard to their impact on reproduction.

[huntermj]

This easier for me to say then type. All mass production facilities pollute the enviroment in some way. Name one that does not and you get a gold star. if we only took what the land offered then moved on to let it regrow non of this would be happining. But this cant be done with the artificialy inflated poplation. All species go through boom and bust periods and then extexcion. or maybe not. I belive we've taken our species to the brink at this point. It may not happen in my life time but we will go through a "readjustment" at some point. Back to a sustainable level.
Mass production helps in the short term but is killing us in the long term.
Sorry for the spelling, my ispell is not working.

[2dumb2kwit]

Not possible to get away from oil. Very few folks are autonomous. Everything you touch, even off grid, is in some way connected to oil.



Okay, I don't understand this at all. Population growth is tied to food availability, not the abundance of cars and houses.

@2D - When the technology was new there was a disparity in cost. In the 80's the cost of wind power was about 30 cents a kilowatt hour. Today, it's about 5 cents a kilowatt hour when you factor in the tax credits from the Production Tax Credit. Most of that is related to turbine design. However, I will concede that wind availability is a driving factor in cost. If your turbine turns in a 5 mph breeze it will produce much less electricity than a 10 mph breeze and the cost will be much higher.

As to backups, Indiana utilities utilize standby power plants on today's grid to balance need and production. As wind generation increases gas/coal generation must decrease to balance need/production. Since gas/coal plants already exist there isn't a need to build more. We would just utilize what we already have. The up side to that is that adding more wind (or solar) would reduce the need for coal/gas plants.

@ Sourdough - It's your job to eliminate about 2 billion folks. Start in China, please.

That's 5 cents, plus 1.5 cent's, (that the gov't takes from us and gives to them.), which equals 6.5 cents. I believe that currently, coal produced energy is about 3 cents.

Doesn't that make wind energy cost about double, what coal energy cost?

[2dumb2kwit]

This easier for me to say then type. All mass production facilities pollute the enviroment in some way. Name one that does not and you get a gold star. if we only took what the land offered then moved on to let it regrow non of this would be happining. But this cant be done with the artificialy inflated poplation. All species go through boom and bust periods and then extexcion. or maybe not. I belive we've taken our species to the brink at this point. It may not happen in my life time but we will go through a "readjustment" at some point. Back to a sustainable level.
Sorry for the spelling, my ispell is not working.

So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing?

[2dumb2kwit]

2D - We are trying to sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil. What do you mean we can't grow our own food? I know lots who do.
Ben: Excellent, for doing that.
Back to oil...
2D: I think nuclear plants are too dangerous. If something bad happens, it would be many times worse than burning coal - not to mention getting all that reactive stuff is costly, and disposal is also very hazardous. Also, not many reactive things are in handydandy deposits.

We must be the change we want to see...

Perhaps your info is not current. France has waste down to very small %'s, and cost is less than other forms of energy.

Is it any more dangerous, than what we are doing now?

[2dumb2kwit]

Oh...and after you look at France, you should also look at the record of nuke power in the U.S. Navy.

[huntermj]

So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing? __________________


If a person can not or does not contribute to there own welfare what can and should happen to them?

Survival of the fitess baby!

[crashdive123]

I think nuclear plants are too dangerous.

Oh, I don't know. I slept a couple of hundred feet from one for over twenty years........

[Ken]

Oh, I don't know. I slept a couple of hundred feet from one for over twenty years........

And look at you now! Nice red glow and all......... Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

[2dumb2kwit]

So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing? __________________


If a person can not or does not contribute to there own welfare what can and should happen to them?

Survival of the fitess baby!

Hahaha....I've said before, that culling the herd may not be a bad thing.

I've even argued, that universal health care will speed up environmental destruction. LOL

[Rick]

@ huntermj - We don't take off for spelling. I have to agree with the boom and bust idea. We go through it all the time with pandemics, wars, etc. I guess that's how we self adjust. But I get your point. No mass production limits food supply which limits population. I can buy that. Improvements in medical care would also have to be factored in, I think.

@ 2D - I think it's actually 2.1 cents per kilowatt hour.

Here's a layout of all sources of power generation and their cost per kilowatt hour. I don't know the date on this model but it looks to be current.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo..._Kilowatt-Hour

[Ken]

Here's a layout of all sources of power generation and their cost per kilowatt hour. I don't know the date on this model but it looks to be current.

The suspense is killing me.

[2dumb2kwit]

The suspense is killing me.

That's what I was thinking......and here's the proof that I'm King of America.
...................