Thinking it through.

[doug1980]

Just eat all the food that people leave behind when they bug out....problem solved.

[Rick]

They ate the kids? Oh, come on.

"Ich bin ein Berliner!" (burp)

[wareagle69]

well sarge go back and re-read your posts, the trust comment has nothing to do with cannibalism it has to do with YCC comment about people not wanting to learn wild edibles and your response was "trust me when they are hungary they will eat all the plants" so when someone says "trust me" i ask for proven facts, just cuz you have a bunch of posts and are a moderater i do not need to "trust" your info- the facts ma'am just the facts, so as not to confuse our many guests here.
next point- yes you are correct while i am in canada i do not know the plants of western illinois ans what is there or not, although google gives me a good idea, my point wasabout the "supermarket mentality" it is not "where " you are looking but "how" you are looking.
Trust me, if you think there are not enough plants to sustain you then you are quite right, but......to the educated individual there is plenty if they learn how.
But ... this is the point to stock up for a year, let the ones that are not able to live meet their demise after much of the population is gone then the true survivors will be able to rebuild, and.....i belive that food will be abundant at that point.

[2dumb2kwit]

They ate the kids? Oh, come on.

"Ich bin ein Berliner!" (burp)

Oh, Oh, Oh....I know this one! J.F.K., "I am a donut"!

[your_comforting_company]

How many other people know about it? Why would you leave your home?

I live in a neighborhood 2 miles outside of town. There are too many people here who will come to my house looking for help because, according to them, I'm the only one who will make it through it. They will be coming for my help, and I can't possibly keep everyone fed and do all the chores that need to be done to accomodate them. There is a certain danger and vulnerability in numbers, although that's in conflict with the safety idea, which I completely disagree with. They can have what they find here. The lazy buggers will never put themselves in a wilderness situation (they are too accustomed to the lifestyle they live now and most likely would never leave town) which is where I'm going, and deep, so I'm not worried about them following. The roads are trashed back there, I doubt an army tank could get back there. No driving means the other folks aint coming.. like I said.. LAZY.

They're not concerned because they don't think it can happen to them. Once that they realize that it can is when the danger really hits.

Exactly my point. So I'm leaving here and all the ticks and leeches too.

Don't forget the hot sauce!

I will be buying a bottle to add to the BOB tomorrow, unless the world as we know it ends before then...

Trust me on this one, when starvation starts to hit everybody will be looking!

They don't know what to look for. That's my point. They will either starve or poison themselves. Can you get poisoning from eating a person who's poisoned themselves with a plant? Kinda like caterpillars? How could you tell if they died from poisoning? Good stuff to think about.. people might be a food source.

Nah, they taste like chicken...or...uh...so I've been told!

Lets see one of those beer rigs... nevermind...

"No man is an island unto himself." Who watches while you sleep? who's got your back? There's safety in numbers.

Who runs off with what little you have while you sleep. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Who can you really trust? Are you SURE your "friend" won't take you out? What about conflict resolutions? There is a particular danger in numbers when times are so screwy. Desperate people do desperate things, often to their own detriment or the same of another for inconsequential reasons; often without reason. Then there's the whole ape-man effect.. how many other grown men will be ashamed for their lack of skill or ability to be self-reliant. How abrasive will our relationship be? competetive nature? Neanderthan rationale?
I trust myself to do what needs to be done.

You can only plan so much, that's my point! The will to live is one thing, the will to survive to a point of satisfaction is something else.

satisfaction is a relative term. Tonights supper is a good example, but that's another thread...

1st, I'll be "bugging in! 2nd, who? anybody that wants what you have, & there will be a lot more of them than there are of you!

Ok, you stay, and when the hordes spot your house and come to take what you have, you'll be there to feel the brunt of their force.
When they arrive at my house, they will find an unoccupied dwelling and a bunch of junk they can have. Everything I will need will be out there in the bush, waiting for me to arrive. I'm leaving it all behind.

[rwc1969]

You can only think it thru so much, and you can only prepare for so many different far out, or not so far out, scenarios. Nobody can prepare for everything and I think if we all really thought it thru we'd realize that.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't think things thru or try and be prepared, but it only gets you so far.

The best plan is to be able to improvise, and not solely rely on thinking it thru or preparing for something that may never happen.

Governements, businesses and people in general make well thought out plans, and set goals based on those plans. But those plans and goals are always changing/evolving based on the changing environment and unforeseen situations. The ones that have improvised the best and were able to react and respond to changes the best are the ones that survived. The ones that made good plans, set goals and stuck to those goals eventhough the environment demanded change didn't.

[Rick]

YCC, I would never want folks to know my survival preps or my skills. Too tempting for them to assume just what you said.

As for bugging in, that's my plan unless I'm forced out by something crazy (chem spill, meth lab, whatever). I'm familiar with the area, my preps are here, I'm one of many so being looted is remote plus I have a whole lake for fish, birds and water.

[your_comforting_company]

it's a two headed coin, Rick. If you try to teach people primitive skills to get them interested in Nature and the environment and history, etc, you do yourself a disservice by exposing your knowledge and becoming viewed as an asset to others. If you dont' try to teach others old ways that demonstrate respect for nature and etc, you do them a disservice.
volunteering and demonstrating for the boy scouts comes to mind as a good example of sharing knowledge, although they are probably trustworthy enough that you wouldn't have to worry about them killing you in your sleep, or stealing your stuff, so not the best example of that aspect, but maybe you see where I'm going with that idea...
damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
If you do, everyone knows, if you don't are you being selfish by not teaching your neighbor "to fish".. kinda hard for me to find the words.. it's gettin late lol

[Sarge47]

.....just cuz you have a bunch of posts and are a moderater i do not need to "trust" your info....

Hmmm, I don't know what's going on here, WE, but "Homey don't play dat!" So you're now #2 on the "ignore list."

[rwc1969]

The way I see that situation YCC is if you know how to hunt and gather and a doctor knows how and has tools to fix you up then there's a benefit to work together.

if you're hurt and a doc is hungry....??

If people were smart they wouldn't rob you for your assets, they'd work with you to share the assets. Not all people are smart though. I could see people killing the ones who know stuff to gain it temporarily, but it wouldn't be too smart a thing to do.

In a chaotic, lawless, and unethical situation intelligent and wise groups will have to band together or hide to prevent the not so wise groups from taking over and ruining everything. Cuz the not so wise will band together and seek out the wise and intelligent to exploit them just like the vikings, spanish and english did. It's the "what I like I take, what I don't I break" mentality that you gotta watch out for.

[hybrid]

To me , surviving is just that. Ensuring that the conditions are met to keep my bodily processes running properly, or near enough to.

This operates at several levels... in a day to day sense it may be about decent eating, not stressing over nonsense, being observant and driving safely. The basic will and passion to survive.

Middle term, involves preparation, principally gathering knowledge and experience, some of my ancestors lived for aeons in this land with nothing more than lumps of wood and bits of string, and a WHOLE lot of local knowledge - and nowadays the landscape is full of useful old bits of rubbish, etc which just makes it easier.

Also practical planning, for example wild sowing of "victory" gardens, seed saving, practice with local natural medicines, as well as keeping an eye on what all the cashed up townies think they're going to do in the Event Of... they can all starve to death in vacant lots and stuck on backed up highways.. leave me out of it

Long term is where to me survival crosses over into actually living. I can grin and bear the lumps (no man v wild jokes, you lot :P I cook my roadkill tyvm ) for as long as it takes but it's important to my mind to have some idea of what I am aiming for over time. Creativity, culture and interpersonal experiences are critical for any sense of "society". Something like a future for my child, and yours as well... very important. I have no interest in allowing myself or others to be reduced to animals just because some abstract notions of social security have failed... many people over thousands of years have if nothing else raised healthy, happy kids with noone standing over em telling them how to do it, or why.

Fortunately, Australia has a pretty long held tradition of working together rather than just killing anyone that stands in your way (though this is changing, and you always get crazies...) and in my neck of the woods, it would probably take a good couple of months of complete civil collapse before we noticed anything much different other than the power not working And more free time to sit around sipping a cold bevvie and watching the birds.

We all have different skills and while old mate down the hill can drop a wallaby at 500m with iron sights, it takes the things in my garden to treat his golden staph should he ever develop any, takes my sensible management of our little patch to ensure decent cover for wildlife etc. Simply not sensible to shoot yourself in the foot, course if you have really stupid neighbours this is not something you can take comfort in!

I certainly can't see my region going totally zombie-movie in a real hurry, and enough mountain ranges between us and the cities to mean that only the truly talented urbanites will make it this far. Once the aircon, bigscreens, facebook and prescriptions bugger up, it will be all over red rover for the majority of them. Out of condition and out of their minds.

We like our gear, somewhat. But my partner and myself were both raised with the idea (someone here has it as a sig?) that the more you know, the less you need and the history if habitation in this country tends to support that. Good shoes (or tough feet and bushsense), something to keep the sun off, somethign to rug up in at night, the means to make fire and the means to cut stuff up, and carry water. Thats about the only true critical-1 aspects in our circumstance. We take none of our possessions seriously, and certainly never let ourselves believe we "deserve" or 'need" 99.9 percent of them. Long as we're healthy and happy , that's the important thing.

The limiting factor here is really water, and even then you'd be hard pressed to exhaust most man made or even standing natural supplies once the power stopped working and people stopped washing dishes all night, hosing down the car, filling the pool and watering their purely ornamental gardens.

transport wise, we'd go okay with our wheels here barring roadblocks, major treefall or whatever. failing that, almost all indiginous trade paths are still in existance, either as modern roads, stock trails or property lines.. anywhere we'd need to get to, ever, would be no more than a week or so's fairly moderate travel in country well stocked enough that you can't starve if you know what you're doing... but much of it looks sparse enough that the average "I gotsa Navman and no clue" type would pass it over.

No real need for us to flee anything much, if we do we can source horses and both know how to ride and if that doesn't work well, these boots were made for walking...just don't walk around in the midday sun like tourists when they come here, that will drive you nuts or get you killed. Walking under the moon is actually a lovely way to travel in open country.

Most country here would kill or terrify the average drone, in a lot of ways the land itself is the best defence against ill spirited people. The aborigines knew this, as did the colonials which is why they set about transporting as many blackfellas from their lands, or, breaking their spiritual ties with them and their kind as a means to gain control.

it is easy to forget that especially in remote parts of the planet, actual law and order is purely a state of mind and at the end of the day, if one of my neighbours swings by and kills me, I'd be tiny flakes of dingo crap in the scrub before anyone could prove anything. it is not law, or threat of law that keeps most people doing the right thing most of the time, it's just basic morality. Course, this varies by region, and of course circumstance. Average people do horrible things all the time, and they mostly feel bad afterwards. Doesn't do the victim any good. Most murderers for example, are found to have killed one person, once, for a "reason" (in their terms). Actual animalistic humans who kill for fun or over very little are so rare, and remarkable, that is why they end up as headlines and thriller movies So foreign to most of us, even the fairly rough and ready.

I do not have a "pop it if it looks at me funny' approach to survival but we take our family security very seriously, that has to be the case whether the cops can be here in (maybe) two hours, if they really feel like it... or they can't. Likewise I don't believe I'd be much of a man or a dad if I expected some magic fairies upstairs to keep the water running to my house, keep me fed or healthy. Nice if they help out, of course! but hardly critical.

There is never any law for the truly lawless, even execution just gives the bastards a warped sense of nobility and validation.

I think we'd do ok, better than many, but you can't rule out accidents, bad luck and quirks of fate. That's where humour and "having a cup of concrete and hardening the $%^& up" comes into play.

[Sourdough]

Hmmm, I don't know what's going on here, WE, but "Homey don't play dat!" So you're now #2 on the "ignore list."

Sarge, Your supposed to be "The" adult, your supposed to not over react, your supposed to be an impartial moderator, not behave like a child who's feelings have been hurt. I request that you not "Ignore" Wareagle, and that you stay in the conversation, and defend what you believe is the correct course of action for you and your family. These "take no prisoners" threads can be the most enlightening if people will not shut each other off.......

[Sarge47]

Sarge, Your supposed to be "The" adult, your supposed to not over react, your supposed to be an impartial moderator, not behave like a child who's feelings have been hurt. I request that you not "Ignore" Wareagle, and that you stay in the conversation, and defend what you believe is the correct course of action for you and your family. These "take no prisoners" threads can be the most enlightening if people will not shut each other off.......

Yeah...ok...but only because it's you!

[Sarge47]

They ate the kids? Oh, come on.

"Ich bin ein Berliner!" (burp)

REF.: "Armegeddon" by Leon Uris.

[Sarge47]

Okay, I'll assume that WE is an expert on wild edibles; however, in a bad situation I doubt he'll be around. I will refer to his "sticky:" "An Absolute Must-Read." You see, ya just can't LIVE on dandelion greens. You're going to have to supplement it with meat, fish, etc. Rabbits & squirrels can be snared, fish can be taken by hook or nets, but what about deer? All's I'm saying here is take some time to think & foresee the potential problems that can arise.

[Rick]

Hey Hybrid - That was a great post. Well thought out and very articulate. We hold similar views. Of course, I don't have crocs around here.

Sarge - Leon Uris wrote historical fiction. He was a wonderful story teller but not everything he wrote is true.

[your_comforting_company]

I have to agree with Rick on hybrid's post. Can't give you any more rep, but definately worth some. It's always interesting to see the POV from different parts of the world. Sounds like you area is very similar to where I live.

I'm loving this thread. Lots of good points made and lots of things to think about. Good thread starter sarge!

[Sourdough]

This thread is timely for me, as I have all winter been reflecting on my next major life move. As we get old our options are reduced. The rate of physical deterioration accelerates. And it would be easy to find myself trapped in a dream that the heart craves, but the body can no longer execute.

In Hemingway's "The Old Man and the Sea" The fisherman looks at his hands, and is compelled to confront the truth, about himself, about the fish, and about the line to which they are both attached.

[hybrid]

Sorry sarge, slap me all you want but I have to play devils advocate and point out that consumption of other mammals is not essential for human survival. I respect your modness, but have to represent scientific accuracy or the ghost of various teacher's passed will haunt me all evening :P I don't care who doesn't play what, or who claims what title...facts are facts. Otherwise we would have no snopes.com

X million Hindus can't be wrong... complete protein, and the body having the ability to cache incompletes til finding their best next match have a lot to do with that. Also that many meats do not contain complete proteins in appreciable levels after sufficient cooking to rule out pathogens etc.

I love a roast once in a while... but it's not essential.Helpful, convenient, compact, easily achieved in some ecosystems, sure! But some of the healthiest, happiest and most energetic people I know eat no meat at all, and do not live of store-bought tofu and multivitamins either. verus most of the fat gutted, red faced, hour on the toilet types that tell me "you need a gut full of cow every evening to be healthy!". Shyeah, right

Dunno bout living off dandy greens... I find weeds mostly taste like weeds... I can cop a veg-heavy diet so long as it tastes like something... I have chicken monthly, fish half as often... mainly I disagree with commercial meat processes rather than the idea of eating meat you catch yourself. If Icannot discuss where someones dinner came from without them passing on it, they should not have been eating it in the first place ...otherwise its fruit veg nuts grains pulses n legumes for me and mine...very few "leafy greens" as they taste like crap, IMO. Without butter and garlic, at least.... my recovery from illness time averages half that of my steak eating brethren, and while anyone else is fiddling with snares, I can be collecting a guaranteed amount of proteins from the wild with the added possibility of snared mammal in a survival sitatuation providing bonus calories. I have noticed my peers doubling...tripling..quadding in the belly fat dept over the last few years of insisting they need to eat meat every day and when last tested, my liver function was apparently breathtakingly healthy for my age.

The whole "man needs meat" thing was thoroughly dismissed a good 50 years ago. It is a handy way to take a large amount of veg-derived proteins on board in a short time, but in some circumstances is more trouble than it is worth and is in no case "necessary for survival" no matter what someone on the interwebs says. Thousands of years of people actually living contrary to "accepted wisdom" says otherwise.

Complete proteins are complete proteins... this is to human nutrition what "organic v inorganic" is to plant growth.. available nutes are just that. Despite marketing , you do not need x amount of meat to process y amount of greens... just not how it works.

[Sourdough]

Are we done here.....? I sure hope NOT....?