The wiring and transmission lines would not be affected. Removing a "fried" component and replacing it makes things as they were before the pulse.Originally Posted by Aurelius95
Oh yeah - One Second After is a must read.
The wiring and transmission lines would not be affected. Removing a "fried" component and replacing it makes things as they were before the pulse.
Oh yeah - One Second After is a must read.
EMPs from solar flares can certainly last for days. We've seen that occur in 1989 when Quebec went dark and in 1921. I'm not aware of any occurrence that has taken place over weeks or years.
I think you'd be hard pressed to be without power for months. Even the Quebec event in '89 only last about 9 hours.
Here is a write-up from wiki on the Quebec outage:
"The variations in the earth's magnetic field also tripped circuit breakers on Hydro-Québec's power grid. The utility's very long transmission lines and the fact that most of Quebec sits on a large rock shield prevented current flowing through the earth, finding a less resistant path along the 735 kV power lines[5]. The James Bay network went offline in less than 90 seconds, giving Quebec its second massive blackout in 11 months.[6] The power failure lasted 9 hours and forced the company to implement various mitigation strategies, including raising the trip level, installing series compensation on ultra high voltage lines and upgrading various monitoring and operational procedures. Other utilities in North America, the UK, Northern Europe and elsewhere implemented programs to reduce the risks associated with geomagnetically induced currents.[5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1...magnetic_storm
What you see in an event like this is not a single massive problem but a series of small events that multiply into a large event. Remember, too, that Quebec was not the only geographic location that experienced the storm in 1989 but the only one that experienced an outage of any consequence.
The very thing that makes the North American grid a liability, its size, is also it's advantage. Let's assume the breakers at Quebec were completely destroyed. Spare equipment is available to put the broken pieces back together. And if they don't have it in house then they look to the manufacturer or to other companies for replacements. And let's assume they were highly specialized breakers that no one else in the world had and it would take months to make new ones. They simply reroute power along the grid until they have everyone back in service. Power is a commodity no different than grain or oil. It's sold and traded day in and day out and shipped from point A to point B on an hourly basis depending on need and the type produced (wind or solar, which is more expensive because it's green, vs coal fire). I have a nephew that does that very thing. He's an electrical engineer for a company that moves power around on the grid as needed.
Let's assume Anchorage would hit dead on with an EMP of massive size that severely damaged the electrical capability but left folks uninjured. AML&P would begin making repairs as soon as possible using spare parts they have in their yard. As their assessment expanded and they saw the impact was larger than they could cover they would contact their equipment manufacturers for replacement parts and/or put a call out to places like Seattle Power and Light, Pacific Power and others to supply them with the equipment they need.
Here's how we did it on the phone side. We had a standing contract with our suppliers. Let's take HP as an example. We would pay HP a premium to hot ship us equipment. That means if we had a significant failure and did not have in house replacements we would call HP and they would ship the next available item to us. They generally have lot's of equipment getting ready to be shipped but they would pull one, maybe the one they intended to ship to you, and send it to us. That's what we paid the premium for. That's part of the overall disaster recovery and business continuity plans that every major corporation and every major utility has in place. No utility wants to be down for days let alone any longer. The loss of revenue, the bad publicity, the resulting regulatory storm and the loss to shareholders would be unacceptable. So they have contingency plans in place to deal with it.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Aurelis - to you question the answer is yes, it could. However, it would be much more likely that the house wiring would be in tact and just the appliances would be damaged. That's the very scenario I'm counting on.
I've seen hundreds of houses hit by lighting. Some came in on the phone line and some came in through power or cable TV while still others were directly hit. In only a few cases were wiring or breaker panels affected. Almost always, it was the loss of TVs, radios, etc. leaving the core service unaffected. I've also seen aerial service drops completely devoid of metal with only the insulation left and pin holes about every two inches where the metal blow out of the insulation and covered the ground like BBs. Lightening, like an EMP event, is pretty unpredictable. We can guess what it's going to do and plan for it but in the end there are a lot of variables that will affect it. Since I can't plan for every conceivable contingency, I plan for what I think will be the most likely scenario and that is as I described above.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Sourdough - I guess with all that's been said (all that I've said) you have to plan according to what you believe can occur and what you're comfortable with. That's really about all any of us can do regardless of the subject matter. I suggest you study this the best you can but look for groups or organizations you trust and don't take to heart every write up whether its for or against, including mine. You have to sleep at night and the only way you can do that is to know you've done your best when your head hits the pillow.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Rick, thanks for all that you bring to this conversation......Note: it does not make up for your flawed economic theories.....
I know, I know. I'm still a work in progress........
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Seriously Thank You......We love you, warts and all.
Here's a bit more information that may help you decide.
History
The fact that an electromagnetic pulse is produced by a nuclear explosion was known since the earliest days of nuclear weapons testing, but the magnitude of the EMP and the significance of its effects were not realized for some time.[1]
During the first United States nuclear test in 1945, electronic equipment was shielded due to Enrico Fermi's expectation of an electromagnetic pulse from the detonation. The official technical history for that first nuclear test states, "All signal lines were completely shielded, in many cases doubly shielded. In spite of this many records were lost because of spurious pickup at the time of the explosion that paralyzed the recording equipment."[2] During British nuclear testing in 1952–1953 there were instrumentation failures that were attributed to "radioflash," which was then the British term for EMP.[3][4]
The high altitude nuclear tests of 1962, as described below, increased awareness of EMP beyond the original small population of nuclear weapons scientists and engineers. The larger scientific community became aware of the significance of the EMP problem after a series of three articles were published about nuclear electromagnetic pulse in 1981 by William J. Broad in the weekly publication Science.[1][5][6]
[edit] Starfish Prime
Main article: Starfish Prime
In July 1962, a 1.44 megaton (6.0 PJ) United States nuclear test in space, 400 kilometres (250 mi) above the mid-Pacific Ocean, called the Starfish Prime test, demonstrated to nuclear scientists that the magnitude and effects of a high altitude nuclear explosion were much larger than had been previously calculated. Starfish Prime also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights, setting off numerous burglar alarms and damaging a telephone company microwave link.[7]
The EMP damage of the Starfish Prime test was quickly repaired because of the ruggedness (compared to today) of the electrical and electronic infrastructure of Hawaii in 1962. Realization of the potential impacts of EMP became more apparent to some scientists and engineers during the 1970s as more sensitive solid-state electronics began to come into widespread use.
The relatively small magnitude of the Starfish Prime EMP in Hawaii (about 5600 volts/metre) and the relatively small amount of damage done (for example, only 1 to 3 percent of streetlights extinguished)[8] led some scientists to believe, in the early days of EMP research, that the problem might not be as significant as was later realized. Newer calculations[9] showed that if the Starfish Prime warhead had been detonated over the northern continental United States, the magnitude of the EMP would have been much larger (22 to 30 kilovolts/metre) because of the greater strength of the Earth's magnetic field over the United States, as well as the different orientation of the Earth's magnetic field at high latitudes. These new calculations, combined with the accelerating reliance on EMP-sensitive microelectronics, heightened awareness that the EMP threat could be a very significant problem.
[edit] Soviet Test 184
Main article: The K Project
In 1962, the Soviet Union also performed a series of three EMP-producing nuclear tests in space over Kazakhstan, which were the last in the series called "The K Project".[10] Although these weapons were much smaller (300 kilotons or 1.3 PJ) than the Starfish Prime test, since those tests were done over a populated large land mass (and also at a location where the Earth's magnetic field was greater), the damage caused by the resulting EMP was reportedly much greater than in the Starfish Prime nuclear test. The geomagnetic storm-like E3 pulse (from the test designated as "Test 184") even induced an electrical current surge in a long underground power line that caused a fire in the power plant in the city of Karaganda. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the level of this damage was communicated informally to scientists in the United States.[11] Formal documentation of some of the EMP damage in Kazakhstan exists[12][13] but is still sparse in the open scientific literature.
[edit] Non-nuclear history
The concept of the explosively pumped flux compression generator for generating a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse was conceived as early as 1951 by Andrei Sakharov in the Soviet Union,[14] but nations have usually kept their most recent work on non-nuclear EMP highly classified until the technology was old enough for similar ideas to be conceived by physicists in other nations.
According to some reports, the U.S. Navy used experimental non-nuclear E-bombs during the 1991 Gulf War. These bombs utilized warheads that converted the energy of conventional explosives into a pulse of radio energy.[15] CBS News also reported that the U.S. dropped an E-bomb on Iraqi TV during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, but this has not been confirmed.[16]
[edit] Characteristics of nuclear EMP
The case of a nuclear electromagnetic pulse differs from other kinds of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) in being a complex electromagnetic multi-pulse. The complex multi-pulse is usually described in terms of three components, and these three components have been defined as such by the international standards commission called the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC).[17]
The three components of nuclear EMP, as defined by the IEC, are called E1, E2 and E3.
The E1 pulse is the very fast component of nuclear EMP. The E1 component has an intense electric field that can quickly induce very high voltages in electrical conductors. E1 is the component that can destroy computers and communications equipment and is too fast for ordinary lightning protectors.
The E1 component is produced when gamma radiation from the nuclear detonation knocks electrons out of the atoms in the upper atmosphere. The electrons travel in a generally downward direction at relativistic speeds (more than 90 percent of the speed of light). This essentially produces a large pulse of electrical current vertically in the upper atmosphere over the entire affected area. This electrical current is acted upon by the Earth's magnetic field to produce a very large, but very brief, electromagnetic pulse over the affected area.[18]
The E2 component of the pulse has many similarities to the electromagnetic pulses produced by lightning. Because of the similarities to lightning-caused pulses and the widespread use of lightning protection technology, the E2 pulse is generally considered to be the easiest to protect against.
The E3 component of the pulse is a very slow pulse, lasting tens to hundreds of seconds, that is caused by the nuclear detonation heaving the Earth's magnetic field out of the way, followed by the restoration of the magnetic field to its natural place. The E3 component has similarities to a geomagnetic storm caused by a very severe solar flare.[19][20] Like a geomagnetic storm, E3 can produce geomagnetically induced currents in long electrical conductors, which can then damage components such as power line transformers.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Da**it! You guys made me read a lot and think even more! Thanks, I really should do more of both more often! Very interesting Q's and A's! Learned alot! (That Rick and Crash are smart little wipper snappers aint they!)
I'm a simple man, of simple means, turned my back on the machines, to follow my dreams.
Yes the shipping container would be for all intents a Faraday Cage and grounding it would be reccomended. Most items that are electric NOT electronic will not be affected by EMP unless they are plugged in to the grid. The grid (power and telephone lines) act as a lightning rod for the EMP and will channel the pulse right into your stuff if it's plugged in. The pulse will arc right through the on off switch, so it doesn't matter whether it's turned off or not. Most of todays electronics have a sleep mode as opposed to an on or off mode. So they are toast in an EMP blast.
I know what hunts you.
Pretty much this is spot on. The theory of the Faraday cage for EMP is a sealed (and well grounded) metal box. The induced currents and voltages you are dealing with are brief, but immense. Similar to lightning, but in some ways very different. Frequency (Hz) of the event plays a large part in how intense it is.The theory is to seal the box "electron tight", and provide no conceivable path for current flow from outside to inside. The "EMI" gasket is metal mesh. Copper seems to be the most durable to me, but I have seen other metals.
You must have a continuous connection of metal to be completely effective. The grounding must be substantial enough (enough wire size and grounding points) to "drain" the charge effectively, but not so large as to be effected by the ground wave pulse and become charged itself.
Last edited by aflineman; 02-02-2010 at 01:38 AM.
Have Lights? Thank a Lineman!
"Being prepared is sometimes inconvenient, but not being prepared is always inconvenient." - Fred Choate
How would items be affected if turned off at the socket? Apart from the fridge/freezer all my electrical items are switched off at the socket or unplugged until I need to use them. What I know about electrictronics and electricity can be written on a postage stamp with room for a signature and I'm having a hard time getting my head round this stuff, but feel it's more I need to know. Also, houses over here are fitted with copper lightening rods to prevent damage should a strike occur, but again my knowledge is very sketchy.
Recession; A period when you go without something your Grandparents never heard of.
Winnie - keep in mind that it is a very large and intense, albeit brief pulse of electromagnetic activity. If a conductor (think wire) is in the path of that pulse it will then transmit the energy to whatever is connected to it. All things in the path of that pulse will be "hit" with that energy. Even an item that is not plugged in may be affected. Things that are indoors are not immune from being hit. The power cord or frame itself of an unplugged computer is susceptible to absorbing that energy. A car with modern electronics is affected in a similar way. Think about a large magnet. Covering it with cardboard does not prevent things from being affected through the material. With a Faraday cage, all of that energy is re-routed so as to not affect the contents of the cage.
This might also be a good place to talk about lightening for a moment since the effects and method of protection are similar.
It doesn't take much voltage at all to have a negative impact on solid state electronics. Some items, like CMOS circuits or PMOS transistors are susceptible to static electricity. That's why you see workers using grounding devices on themselves (typically a wrist strap) and standing on non-conducting mats during their manufacturer.
So let's talk about voltages. That little blue spark coming off the end of your finger and prompting a bad word is in the 500v to 1000v range. Static electricity can easily increase to 25,000 or more volts giving you that audible SNAP when you touch something and evoking several bad words. That charge is more than enough to damage solid state devices but most equipment is designed to prevent damage from static electricity by carrying the charge around the components instead of through them and by isolating them through the use of plastic housings.
An EMP event is expected to be in the 10-50 kilovolt per meter (kVm) range while lightening can be in the 300 kV range. Both events are extremely short lived and are measured in milliseconds.
Extremely high voltage transmission lines (> 35000 volts) can arc an opening of several feet. Here is a video of a switch being opened on a 34 mile long, 230 kV line that is unloaded or "dead". The resulting arc you'll see is caused by the line de-energizing or bleeding off its residual charge for lack of a better explanation. Remember, the voltage is turned off on this transmission line.
http://205.243.100.155/frames/mpg/345kV_SWITCH.MPG
That was 230,000 volts across several feet. Now, consider lightening at 300,000 volts across a few centimeter gap of a circuit breaker or switch. Hopefully, that puts this in perspective.
Where wiring makes a 90 degree bend, lightening will often keep going straight and leap into anything that will conduct it such as aluminum siding, gutters, etc.
I know that's a lot of information and perhaps more than you wanted but I hope it puts in perspective why you should NOT be talking on the phone during a lightening storm, why cable boxes can be welded to anything metal they are sitting on and why things like air conditioners and refrigerators suddenly smell funny. Folks underestimate the power and unpredictability of lightening thinking the breaker box and grounding will protect them. It's simply not true. No amount of protection can adequately protect you other than to avoid contact with connected items during a storm.
An EMP event will act in much the same way with much the same results.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Thanks for clearing that up guys, I'm going to have to read your posts a few times to understand. I fully get lightening taking the path of least resistance in it's urge to "ground" itself. So what you are saying is a lightening rod is not reliable? Sorry to keep butting in Sourdough.
Perhaps I should start an Understanding Lightening thread
Recession; A period when you go without something your Grandparents never heard of.
Rick, Could a strong EMP, over NYC sterilize, or remove computer data, like bank records, from CD or servers, or hard drives, even if unplugged.
Also, was it pre 1973 cars, trucks, motorcycles that are solid state free.....?
Sourdough - The answer to your first question is yes it certainly could and probably would. However, data is backed up on some periodic basis and stored in a data vault (secure and controlled environment designed to withstand most events). So the data should be able to be restored as soon as the hardware is functioning. The only data lost would be from the last backup to the point of the event, which could be pretty substantial in some cases. We did a full data backup every week-end with incremental backups nightly. So everything was back up on Saturday night/Sunday morning and every night we backed up every file that had changed since the last backup. Those tapes were then sent for storage and in our case that was an underground facility.
EDIT: I can tell you that our servers serve the New York Stock Exchange and there are multiple redundancies as well as secured backups. 911 did take them out, however. They were removed, cleaned, reprogrammed and reinstalled and nothing missed a beat.
Question number two. I've read an awful lot of pros and cons on the vehicle subject and there seems to be several schools of thought. I truly have no clue who is right and I doubt anyone does.
Idea 1: Vehicles pre 1980 would not be affected by an EMP event because they don't contain solid state electronics.
Idea 2: There is no evidence that pre-1980 vehicles would NOT be affected. Components such as alternators/generators, batteries, even vehicle wiring could be impacted.
Idea 3: Any vehicle is fine. The metal body acts as a Faraday cage and will protect the vehicle's components.
I guess its all anecdotal at best. My personal belief is that a surplus military vehicle like your duecy would be ideal. The government has always known about EMP and protection should be built into the vehicle. Short of that, I'm not going to worry about it. Vehicles with either work or they won't and I'm not sure where I'm going if something happens. Without communications (the event will render all communication useless for a while) I have no guarantee that any place is better or worse than where I'm at.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
Winnie - I guess you have to define "reliable". Are they better than not having them? You bet! Lightening rods do what they are intended to do and that's provide a path to ground around the outside of the house instead of through it. And if you'll notice, the ground lines all make gentle curves when going around some object like the edge of the roof (or they should anyway). That's to try and keep the lightening contained. Are they fool proof? Not in the least. I've been out to more than one house that had them and still took a hit. Lightening, and I would assume an EMP event, will do screwy, unpredictable things because you're talking about enormously high voltages that has the capability to jump pretty large gaps. I'd much rather have lightening rods than not have them, however.
Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.
The biggest thing I have seen with many lightning protection systems is lack of maintenance, inspection, and testing. Connections must be tight and corrosion free. Downconductrs must be secure and routed right. Items adjacent to downconductors should be bonded to help prevent side flash. Air terminals should be clean and in good shape. Even with all of these, lightning will still do unexpected things. We can only attempt to mitigate the effects. After all (like I used to say in when I taught it) it is only the THEORY of lightning protection. As such it changes; we learn something new with each strike.
Have Lights? Thank a Lineman!
"Being prepared is sometimes inconvenient, but not being prepared is always inconvenient." - Fred Choate
Looks like Winnie jnr could be up a ladder at the weekend then.
Recession; A period when you go without something your Grandparents never heard of.
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