I might have a good Idea.....yea not likely....EMP related

[Sourdough]

So would it help if I put the generators inside the 20' Steel Shipping Container.....? It has new rubber door seals.....??? Will the Steel Connex protect the generators.....?

[Rick]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.

[crashdive123]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.

+1.............

[Pal334]

As an observation, would it be prudent to ground the container, or is it considered grounded being on the ground?

[Sourdough]

As an observation, would it be prudent to ground the container, or is it considered grounded being on the ground?

Because I generally set the containers on "Dunnage" and because the containers have wooden floors, yes, grounding would be prudent.

[Sourdough]

On a guess, yes. Any metal cage around an electrical item will offer protection. But...does the generator have any circuit cards in it? Any type of solid state electronics? I don't know what kind of generator you have. If the answer is no, then there isn't anything to protect. It would take a pretty massive EMP event to damage an electrical item that does not have solid state electronics and chances are pretty good you'd be toast if it was that bad.

I know that they have a capacitor, and if they set very long with out running the capacitor needs to be re-excited. Rick, would be good of your to research the solid state issue. One is a largish Diesel but the others are typical stand-by gas powered 5,500 to 10,000 watt.

[Winnie]

Aren't those shipping containers basically a metal box? If so, wouldn't it be a Faraday cage or am I being a dolly again?

[tipacanoe]

I believe that you will need a EMI gasket around the door and any other openings. The cable if it extends outside the container, will need a double shield, or be in EMP (electro mechanical protection which is grounded on each end) If you forgo any protective measures such as grounding the container, then I don't think you would want to do any of them, because it only takes one way in to ruin the whole set up.

[Sourdough]

Aren't those shipping containers basically a metal box? If so, wouldn't it be a Faraday cage or am I being a dolly again?

No. I think you are 100% correct, on the Faraday Cage.

[Rick]

Tippicanoe - I'm not certain I understand. Even if some type of EMP event were to occur (solar flare for example), generators typically don't have solid state electronics so they aren't likely to be damaged. Placing the generator inside a shipping container would be the equivalent of a faraday cage as Winnie pointed out.

The damage occurs because transmission lines act as a pipeline or conduit sending geomagnetically induced currents directly into transformers and other grid components. It isn't the size of the current but the intense fluctuations that causes the break down. Since Sourdough is not on the grid, the likelihood that he would experience any damage is pretty slim since there is no conductor spanning miles for current to be induced in. I would think he's pretty well protected even if he doesn't do anything preventative.

Metatech has been studying EMP threats since 1991. Here is a report they put together.

http://www.wunderground.com/hurrican...tatech2009.pdf

"Metatech Corp. estimates that more than 300 large extra-high voltage (EHV) transformers would be exposed to levels of GIC [that's Geomagnetically Induced Currents] sufficiently high to place these units at risk of failure or permanent damage requiring replacement." - Source listed below.

While the threat to the grid is most real, the threat to unattached generators or generators running off grid is next to nil. In fact, even Europe is considered to be at substantially less risk than the U.S., Canada or China because they lack the extremely long cross country transmission lines that are the lightening rods, if you will, for induced current into the grid. The three countries listed above have a lot of them.

Here is a really good article, from which I took the quote above, that discusses EMP intentionally caused by another country and by solar flares. It is a two part article so look for the link to Part II at the end of this link.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/1

[Pal334]

"It has new rubber door seals.....???"

In the context of Sourdoughs question, does the condition of the door seals (other than the obvious weather issue) play any part in the EMP question?

By the way, Sourdough,thanks for asking the question, I am learning from it

[Rick]

I honestly don't think so. If he were on the grid then there would be a lot of questions that need to be researched. But he doesn't have that long line of wiring for current to be induced into should an EMP event occur.

In my own case, I have a generator in the garage not connected to the house. I don't expect any damage to occur to the gen set just sitting in the garage, even though I am on the grid. While I could certainly lose a lot of equipment inside the house, TV, computer, fridge, etc. I don't think the gen would be impacted.

[Rick]

While we're on the subject, using the term "grid" might well be misleading. Telephone, Cable TV and, to a certain extend, underground pipelines would all be at risk. Telephone and Cable TV both utilize cables spanning miles and are quite susceptible to having GCI induced into them. Anytime a phone line passes parallel to an overhead transmission line the telephone cable was susceptible to GCI from the transmission line. Often enough to knock your socks off.

If you think of pipelines such as the Alaskan Pipeline, it's nothing more than a huge antenna that current can be induced into, which would then impact pumps and generators. Or least have the potential to do so.

[tipacanoe]

Rick,
I would agree, if the US Navy wasn't doing just what I said, and I'm pretty sure they aren't on any grid. There are a whole bunch of people who want to protect the ships from just such an event.

[Rick]

The difference is in the use of solid state electronics. About the only thing left on the ship that would work is the fog horn.

[Pal334]

Then it would seem (if I am understanding this), storing a generator (without solid state electronics) in a grounded CONNEX would be more than adequate for avoiding almost any EMP event damage? And the CONNEX idea has merits for a wide variety of storage needs. I know there are no absolutes, but do believe that being a bit on the cautious side never hurts.

[crashdive123]

With Navy ships there are literally thousands of hull penetrations. Many of which would act as large conductors and conduits. In the case of storage of some low tech equipment in a big metal box that is grounded - that really should be sufficient.

[Sourdough]

Two Points: Rick, the cabin is on the power grid via extension cord from the temporary service drop.

But most important: It is my understanding that solar flares can come in waves, for days, and weeks, and maybe even years. I also understand that if equipment is undamaged, in the first Solar wave, but the power grid goes down for months, or years. If at that point I plugged in the cabin to the standby generator and an other solar flare hit while the generator is running that it could damage the generator, hence my redundancy of generators. My fear is -36* Fahrenheit, and the power is out for months.

I confess too being fearful of economic collapse, but feel I could live with it. With out a lot of planning life in Alaska would be hell & most likely fatal. especially for the city people.

[Aurelius95]

If an EMP hits, does it mess with the wiring? For instance, the copper running through your house to light up all your rooms? Or the outlets, would they be usable? Can you hook up a non-affected generator to a house/cabin that has been zapped?

I read an interesting book recently, I think it was called "One Second After". Scary stuff.
http://www.onesecondafter.com/

Good thread, Sourdough.

[Sourdough]

If an EMP hits, does it mess with the wiring? .

My understanding is that it can fry those large transformers, and there is nearly none available to replace the fried ones. And in theory with no electric transmission the factory of which I understand there is only two, could be out of business. I could be wrong but my understanding is the possibility exists for large areas, like states or even countries, and in theory the whole world, to be with out power for years.