justify your redndancy

[wareagle69]

ok so i am combining the two threads in a way, but wanted to bring my point to the forefront here.
while many carry some great gear to help them i still think that most do not know how to properly use what they have, why and i have asked this many times why so many ways to start a fire? i know cuz i was there 3 yrs ago....fear... not owning the skills to start a fire know what its not the flame its the fire itself i have seen many who think that they can start a fire fail with a lighter own the skill folks learn fire as you learn your own hand.
no mattter where you are you wil need bushcraft /ingenuity what ever you call it could be the city or the bush learn to use whats around you

now here is an important question, undoubtedly the most important gear with you is your foot wear, why is it most do not carry two or three pairs of boots or and extrea gear bag what if those fail? so why not carry those? yet so many knives and ways to start fire baffle me.
i hope with everything in me that i can make a rondevous some day and show fireskills to those there and why i rely on only my firesteel to start a fire.
yes with my cutting tools i do have a couple, one axe, one bow saw, one fixed blade for skinning and one leatherman. in the north an axe and a sierra saw?bow saw are critical each has there function

i look forward to your replies

[Sourdough]

Redundancy.........I have decided mostly for kicks, giggles, and something to do in the winter, that every winter I'll assemble a basic cache. This winter I have confined my reading to first hand accounts of the trappers, gold seekers, explorers, dog mushing freight/mail haulers of the period 1885 to 1930 Alaska. I now realize how critical the line shack, line cabin, line wall tent, Cache was to survival. Those of us lucky enough to live "with-in" National Forests larger than some states, have tremendous opportunity. I still have much of my equipment from 34 years of guiding Big Game Hunters; and I can't sell it for anything, it is still good, so I'll cache it.......

[wareagle69]

ah yes now that is redundancy that i can applaud haveing a cashe, if something happpens to you or your gear on your travels or at your bugout then you can go to your reserves, but having all your ways to start a fire on you ...then what? i personally own several firesteels, spread around my different cashes

[Sourdough]

I was just reading about a guy who had (9) line cabins for his trapline, it would take him four days to build a line cabin. They were 8 to 10 miles apart. He lost some toes, and finger tips when his cabin burned to the ground, he got out with only his longjohns, socks on. It was sub-zero so he stayed by the burning cabin as long as it put out heat, then Mushed to the next line cabin. Note: In those days you cut-off your own blackened, frozen body parts.

[owl_girl]

undoubtedly the most important gear with you is your foot wear,
i look forward to your replies

depends on where you are. in hawaii people lived out in the woods bare foot.

[Batch]

I light 95% of my fires with a fire steel and a knife. We have a fire outback almost every night from around October to around mid-June. Then almost every weekend.

I try to use natural tinder as much as possible.

I keep a small fire steel and a P-51 in my wallet. I couldn't get the P-38 to throw sparks. I guess it must have something to do with alloys. But, the P-51 has multiple uses besides being a can opener.

I keep an extra fire steel in my pack, truck, quad, etc. If for some reason I lose my primary and I can make it to any of the others then I have back up. If I am un-available and someone with me needs gear, they know I have useful stuff in these places.

I carry two knives daily as a self defense backup. If I am pinned in a fight and accessing my firearm is not the best option or simply not an option. I can hopefully access a knife and cut my way out of the situation. Never gonna happen. I know... But, I don't think I will ever have to use the gun. But, it keeps me alert. Its presence a constant reminder.

I keep lighters and tinder in the same places. i don't carry tinder that I can reliably light with the steel. But, I carry some receipts that will light with a lighter. I also know questionable tinder will more readily light with a flame than a spark.

The redundancy of knives is a matter of constant testing. But, I prefer my Case XX Ridgeback Hunter for skinning gators, deer and hogs. Just because that is what I am used to using. I keep a full tang Gerber camp knife that is general beat the crap out of in camp. It would be obvious that the Ridgeback is not very baton friendly.

I also will usually keep a Case XX Stockman in my pocket. It and a camp knife or machete would be all I would carry back packing.

Any one knife would work in a pinch. But, the same could be said in your kitchen. Just a paring knife isn't the best choice for chopping and a cleaver ain't the best choice for peeling. Though I am sure you could perform both tasks with one in the middle.

I take an extra pair of boots with me. But, not when I am backpacking.

Survival straws, water purification, emergency blankets, plastic rain ponchos, signal devices all redundant for the reasons stated above. If someone can get to my vehicle or pack then they have those resources. First aid kits are sized according to the thing its carried in. So the small kit in my pack will allow you to get to the quad or truck and you'll have more available to you then.

I am constantly trying different things. So what is in each location changes from trip to trip.

[your_comforting_company]

why so many ways to start a fire? ... know what? its not the flame its the fire itself ...learn fire as you learn your own hand.
no mattter where you are you wil need bushcraft /ingenuity, what ever you call it, could be the city or the bush, learn to use whats around you

depends on where you are. in hawaii people lived out in the woods bare foot.

It does depend largely on location. There is a very short time of year here that footwear would be imperative. In fact, the last couple days, it's been warm enough here, that after work, I walk around the yard barefoot. My redundacy only covers my immediate needs. All the other redundancy is provided by nature. My quest is to learn to master my environment, as the people here did before history. I simply could not ask for a better environment.
Then there's the weight factor... why carry 20 lbs of boots around with you?

Now what you say about learning fire is very true. It requires an intimate understanding of fire to nurture a tiny ember into a fire large enough to signal the moon. The people of the Lower Chattahoochee Valley had an intimate understanding of fire and a relationship with it and through it. All year long, they only kept one fire going. It did not go out from the time it was an ember from a ceremonial fire. It united them in mystical ways. To keep the fire going all the time required constant attention. The fire tender had to understand if it needed to breathe, or enkindle.. they had to understand how to control it and utilize its properties for different purposes.
to breathe life into an ember nested in a well made tindle, and to use that small ball of fire to light an ever growing fire is an experience in and of itself. I smile for half an hour every time I do it, whether anyone watched or not. Own the SKILLS

I dunno... long-winded, but to answer the bigger question, I have very little redundancy in my bag or elsewhere. I do need to set up a cache somewhere near my intended encampment to cover immediate needs. I do not however, see the need, in my geographic location, for 3 or 4 pairs of shoes... especially with all the plants that provide cordage, shoes would be easy to make...
My question is why all the material redundancy and not redundant knowledge and skills? why not learn how to MAKE 3 or 4 different KINDS of shoes? Why not learn to make fire with 8 or 10 different items that you can find around you immediately? Why such a dependence on material goods and not your SELF?

[BENESSE]

Well, I carry a s-load of redundancy to CMA since my skills aren't as good as y'all's. If and when they get better, I'll pare down.
I also don't have the luxury of BOV or cacheing all over the place, so everything I have and might possibly need will be on my body.

In my case the right footwear is vital.

[2dumb2kwit]

In my case the right footwear is vital.

Read: It's an excuse to buy more shoes. LOL

[Ted]

Wareagle, the last thing anyone needs in a bug out situation is to be more stressed out than they already are from the situation thats making them bug out in the first place. If what they have makes 'em comfy and more secure, I say leave them alone!

The more knowledge you have the less your gonna need,period! I hope your trying to let them know they don't need as much,as some do. But I sometimes get the feeling the only point to your threads is "I know more than you! Nanner, nanner nanner!".........BFD!

[Batch]

My question is why all the material redundancy and not redundant knowledge and skills? why not learn how to MAKE 3 or 4 different KINDS of shoes? Why not learn to make fire with 8 or 10 different items that you can find around you immediately? Why such a dependence on material goods and not your SELF?

Well. I agree that having many ways to do something is the best bet. Fire is a good example. There are many ways to get spark or heat to start a fire. I prefer to use a fire steel and so I keep them in various places. There are many different natural occurring types of tinder. Knowing where to get dry tinder even when it is raining is a skill you should have. But, packing a little tinder in a waterproof case and storing it where you may need it just seems prudent to me.

As for shoes, where I hike there is only one type of footwear. WET!!! Unless you wanna wear chest waders all day in the South Florida heat. I change my boots when I get to camp and then switch again before I go out. Though most of the year you can just wear flip flops during the day.

At night the mosquitoes will take care of what ever the fire ants don't get if you ain't wearing shoes. I got friends that don't wear shoes out in the woods. But, I am a tender foot. LOL

[BENESSE]

Read: It's an excuse to buy more shoes. LOL

Like some of you with knives!

But can your knife do this?

[Ken]

.........I sometimes get the feeling the only point to your threads is "I know more than you! Nanner, nanner nanner!".........BFD!

[2dumb2kwit]

Most of my redundancy is repeating myself, when I'm talking to Ken....'cuz repetition penetrates even the dullest mind...repetition penetrates even the dullest mind....... repetition penetrates even the dullest mind.

[Ken]

Okay, WE, a/k/a "Master of Everything EXCEPT the Wild Edibles Database," here we go again, huh?

I suppose I should say that I'm embarrassed to admit that I carry at least three (count 'em, WE, I said THREE) methods of starting fire, huh? Let's see - there are a few Bics (my first choice) and a blast match and even some waterproof matches in my pack. Then I have some cotton balls dipped in vasoline, and other assorted items including "wet-fire" and drier lint to help me out as well. Sad? Maybe. But I've never failed to get a nice fire going whenever I've needed to.

And water purification? How about FIVE (yep, that's 5) ways to do it. All in my pack. There's my Katadyn pocket filter, my Aquamira Frontier Pro, my filter straw, either my "micropur" or my "potable aqua" tablets and (guess what) I can even boil the stuff! And then again, I still know how to filter and purify water using natural media methods, including grass, sand, and charcoal. Does that count?

And WE? If my boots crap out on me, I can probably mend them with the stuff I carry in my pack - you know, those redundant multi-use items like paracord, thread, duct tape, a small sheet of plastic, super glue - stuff that all together weigh far less than a second (or third) pair of boots.

And it's funny, WE - I just heard my furnace go on. I'm embarrassed to admit that I have a thermostat that electronically kicks on the furnace when the temperature drops below a predetermined point. I suppose that I should just rip that thermostat out and head down the basement with my firesteel whenever the house gets cold. Heck, call me lazy, WE.

By the way ......... remember my offer from months back to have you come down my way, ON MY TURF, with a small pack of your own? Remember? I'd bring my own pack (same weight) and let's see which one of us fares better. The offer still stands! Tell me when you're ready, WE! (as Alpine Sapper would say) "kay, punkin'?"

[hunter63]

As this seems to be about the third thread, dealing with redundancy, fire starting, justifying stuff, there has to be a point here somewhere.
It seems to me your goal is "The Perfect BOB", maybe I wrong.

As we all strive for this end, and have also had experiences, where a much need piece of gear, boots, what ever.....has been missing, destroyed, lost etc.....Bummer, man.

But as each person has their own, knowledge, needs, fears, goals the range of gear will vary, for each.

I have been carrying stuff around long before the BOB's, BOL, SHTF and all the other BS buzz words, and called it in the old Boy Scouts terms "Being Prepared"


My "stuff" is what I like to call Mission specific, different "stuff" for:

Hunting, deer, duck, hunting, hiking, scrounging/foraging sessions, or just seeing where this trail goes, canoeing, boating, 4 wheeler riding, 4X4 trailing, mud runs, long drives across country, or just a Sunday drive w/DW, (ever notice that Stuff happens when you are heading to a wedding, in a suit, have a flat tire, and just happened to have not "geared up")

Camping: trailers, back packing, canoe camping, primitive camping.

Cabin building, heavy on equipment tools, etc.

Bug in: Preps, stashed, deployed......

Bug out: Preps stashed, deployed.......

My point is that its personal for each what you carry and why.
You want a list fine, happy to oblige, to have to Justify it to you?....Not so much.
Good luck in your quest

[Rick]

Very good analogy!!

[Batch]

Yup, pretty well said Sjj!

[wareagle69]

[/COLOR]

depends on where you are. in hawaii people lived out in the woods bare foot.

very true owl girl, cody lundin goes shoeless year round in the mountains of arizona

. Own the SKILLS...
My question is why all the material redundancy and not redundant knowledge and skills? why not learn how to MAKE 3 or 4 different KINDS of shoes? Why not learn to make fire with 8 or 10 different items that you can find around you immediately? Why such a dependence on material goods and not your SELF?

so true, own the skills, i do not own the skills very well in cordage, have dabled but would never say i could make shoes, excellent skill to own

Wareagle, the last thing anyone needs in a bug out situation is to be more stressed out than they already are from the situation thats making them bug out in the first place. If what they have makes 'em comfy and more secure, I say leave them alone!
my point for all this ted is for folks to own the skills so they are not as stressed in a bad scenario

The more knowledge you have the less your gonna need,period! I hope your trying to let them know they don't need as much,as some do. But I sometimes get the feeling the only point to your threads is "I know more than you! Nanner, nanner nanner!".........BFD!

point to my threads is to share what i know, it is a responsibility, the more i can share or teach the better some will be, the less stress upon resources if these skills are ever needed.

Okay, WE, a/k/a "Master of Everything EXCEPT the Wild Edibles Database," here we go again, huh?
dial up-enough said

By the way ......... remember my offer from months back to have you come down my way, ON MY TURF, with a small pack of your own? Remember? I'd bring my own pack (same weight) and let's see which one of us fares better. The offer still stands! Tell me when you're ready, WE! (as Alpine Sapper would say) "kay, punkin'?"

i've got 2 yrs before i can go back stateside at that time i will be very happy to share dirt time with anyone interested, as you may well rememberi lived in the states 23 yrs i am more than familiar with all ot of geographical areas

As this seems to be about the third thread, dealing with redundancy, fire starting, justifying stuff, there has to be a point here somewhere.
It seems to me your goal is "The Perfect BOB", maybe I wrong.
yes it is, i want you to have the perfect bob to learn every peice very intimatley to find out what works in every situation
.


:

,

My point is that its personal for each what you carry and why.
You want a list fine, happy to oblige, to have to Justify it to you?....Not so much.
Good luck in your quest

just an exercise in points hunter, i know one person here that i peeved off so much he learned a skill very well just to show me, no matter the way you get there i just want folks to get there.
as i have said before on another thread i will never apologize for what i have done or said, some folks need more prodding and cajiling than others

[2dumb2kwit]

As this seems to be about the third thread, dealing with redundancy,...

Ironic....is it not???? LOL