redundancy

[wareagle69]

so i have seen many bob or 72 hr kits or what have you that have many different ways of fire starting or knives and while i find this not neccesary(personally) some may.
my diffuculty is that i find if you have not truly mastered a skill, or what i call owning it then you have many ways of backing it up, i speak of this from experience, i used to carry two zippo lighters extra flints and a bottle of fuel and water proof matches and a pocket lighter and two strikers. after spending many hours starting fires(several hundred of them) i now only carry my striker and my tinder kit, i can start a fire in under a minute, not counting the gathering time, that factors into any fire that we all have to do.
but........ i do have many many kits put together one in my room one in the car one in the garage, one in the trailer,one in the barn and one in my locker at work, and they all contain the same things, so i own at least 7 strikers, seven of everything in my kits.
so i woder about things like this, my redundancy is due to many kits, all kits contain only one of what i need and all kits are available when needed, not sure where i was headed with this, but i just wonder why sometimes people pack what they do.

[Rick]

May I suggest you still carry that BIC? If you suddenly find yourself immersed in water and with numb hands or you have an injured hand or arm you might not be able to use your flint or any of the other two handed tools. All you need with the BIC is a couple of fingers. An another options, itoffers is a short, instantaneous light. You might use it because you've dropped your flashlight while in the off position. Instead of groping around in the dark a simple flick and you can find it.

[TucsonMax]

I abide by the Rule of 3. Three methods for everything. Except for water, which my current 6 methods still aren't enough and I'm working on two more.

[Camp10]

I was always taught to carry 3 means of starting a fire. I carry a BIC on me always..it is in my pocket right now (and I havnt had a smoke in 4 years!) But I also carry in my bag a magnesium firestarter and a firesteel. I can rationalize it easily though because they take up almost no space and weight and I want a fire if I am out in the....well, if I am out.

[hunter63]

Redundancy is the name of the game, rule of three, good counsel.
Bic's are the handiest of all, cheap, enough you can buy dozens for low buck, out them everywhere.

Water is always gonna be a problem as it weighs a lot, if youn have to carry it.
Water filter and perification tabs are always carried in the big bag, canteen or water bottles in fanny pack or belt for short term, hikes, hunting etc.

[wareagle69]

May I suggest you still carry that BIC? If you suddenly find yourself immersed in water and with numb hands or you have an injured hand or arm you might not be able to use your flint or any of the other two handed tools. All you need with the BIC is a couple of fingers. An another options, itoffers is a short, instantaneous light. You might use it because you've dropped your flashlight while in the off position. Instead of groping around in the dark a simple flick and you can find it.

i had my usual quick response ready for this, but held off over night to ponder it, heres what i came up with
if i fall into water, the bic will do me no good, my firesteel will still work, have done that before(soaked my firesteel in water)
i'll give you the arm injury, but suggest unless it is a dramatic hand injury i could still most likely hold the firesteel in my hands
this i can confirm, in cold weather you lose your dexterity, try keepng your gloves off for a while(depends on how cold it is) then try to touch your thumb to baby finger, now try to hold and start a bic lighter.
next saturday i am ice fishing with allen, so i will submerse my hands in the water to simulate falling thru ice into water, i hypothicize that my fingers will not be able to work the bic lighter but that my hands will be able to grip my firesteel to start a fire.
this is why i did not post lastnight, i can only assume that this is how it will work, i promised myself last year that i would not post about anything unless i had experimented it myself or saw first hand it done, not just read about it or made the assumption that it would work, will help me and others more by following this rule
will let you know next week how this works out

[Rick]

That will be a very good test. After you do that, drop the BIC in the water and try it. I'll bet it still works. It's nothing more than a steel, flint and a sealed container of fuel. Really, if you think about it, it's the modern day version of the fire steel and flint you carry.

I'll be very interested in your test. I agree with your description on numb hands. However, my assumption (I haven't tried this) is using the BIC would be easier than using a flint and steel. I could be wrong.

[Camp10]

My BIC has been through the washing machine many times. It doesnt work when it is soaking wet but will work fine after it dries some.

[wareagle69]

i will stand by mt theory that numb hands will not have the dexterity to flic my bic but the whole hand can close and hold a firesteel, will let ya know how it works out

[Winnie]

To answer your question, IMO a lot of people, me included, are not necessarily wilderness types. I'm hopeless at starting a fire with a steel, so I have an esbit stove, fuel tabs and a few bic lighters. The Esbit is there to provide instant heat and warm up a drink/meal. I can also use the fuel tabs and bic to get a proper fire going. To my mind there's nothing more depressing than sitting there with no heat, hot drink/food so I keep my bases covered. Then there's always the point, what if you're in an area with very little natural fuel to get a fire started at all? I'm not talking backpacking here, but on the road from your home to your BOL, which for me is the point of this. If you've got to walk it and it may take a day or two what then? Heat and light is a great morale booster.

[wareagle69]

winnie
i was the same way 4 yrs ago lots of ways to start a fire, i couldn't get a fire started with a firesteel to save my life, then watching an episode from one of my idols ray mears and it showed him putting the firesteel almost right in the tinder pile and striking it to a flame, i started with baling twine pulled apart to fine fibers, added to my tinder pile and very quickly got flame, now thousands of fires later i have gained the confidence to carry only my firesteel, also i have my tinder box which carries the makings of a fire very easily
if i may suggest something to start you off use some steel wool in your tinder pile and try your fire steel, i think you will get great results, then as you progress you can try many many different tinders

[Rick]

Winnie, try a piece of 100% cotton embedded with petroleum jelly. Spread some of the fibers so they stand out and try it. The spark should catch immediately. Try that a few times and then begin trying other materials as WE stated. I think flint and steel are just super easy if you use the right material to catch the spark then the right material to carry the flame. I carry a small container of char cloth along with a spark rod as part of my pocket survival kit. It goes with me everywhere.

[Winnie]

WE, Ray Mears is one of my heroes too!(Just finished reading Northern Wilderness, a great history of Canada) I don't know how I manage it, I can get the thing going, but then it goes out. Now ask me to get a fire going with a bit of paper and wood and whoosh! No problem! but I need a flame to start with. The last time I tried a firesteel I lost my rag and it went approx 50 yards over the fence at some velocity. I then got really annoyed as they're not cheap over here! I've come to the conclusion that once my fire is going, then I'll just have to feed it to keep it alight. I will try from time to time though.

[hunter63]

Bic's won't light if they get wet, till they dry off, neither will the fire steel.
They also are hard to light when real cold.(carried in out side coat pocket)

I carry several Bic's,Out side pocket, inside pants pocket, and another in a belt holster w/a small multi tool), Zippo and fire steel, along with a candle end, and a couple of fire starters (home made).

Since hanging out around here, added the cotton balls with vaseline, along with the char cloth. (see, some stuff is rubbing off).
Here we have redundancy again.

[Batch]

I know this. If you strike a lighters flint while it is wet it will erode a lot quicker. I used to smoke a lot and fish a lot. I've killed some lighters like that. If it gets wet you are better to blow on the lighter to dry it off first.

I carry a ferro rod and p-38 knock off. I also carry a Bic. Fire steel makes sparks. Lighters make fire. I can light certain tinders that I couldn't with a fire steel. In Florida you can get good tinder and kindling from cabbage palms, which are everywhere down here. I started a fire at camp last night just after it rained and everything I needed to dry the wet wood was on the cabbage palm. Except the ferro rod.

I keep lighters in my pocket, packs, truck, quad, tackle box and what not. I take a piece of 10 speed inner tube and close off one end with rubber cement. I slip the other end over the Bic and it is water proof.

[crashdive123]

WE, Ray Mears is one of my heroes too!(Just finished reading Northern Wilderness, a great history of Canada) I don't know how I manage it, I can get the thing going, but then it goes out. Now ask me to get a fire going with a bit of paper and wood and whoosh! No problem! but I need a flame to start with. The last time I tried a firesteel I lost my rag and it went approx 50 yards over the fence at some velocity. I then got really annoyed as they're not cheap over here! I've come to the conclusion that once my fire is going, then I'll just have to feed it to keep it alight. I will try from time to time though.

Winnie - to keep from scattering your tinder pile try this. Set up your pile, get your ferrocium rod and steel scraper right next to the pile, instead of striking down with the steel - pull the rod away from the pile while holding the steel still. This is a good way to get started to keep from scattering the pile. After a little while you'll be comfortable doing it either way.

[hoosierarcher]

Just answering this before reading any other replies. You have a slight misunderstanding of the point in redundancy. You "back up" not because of skill but against injury or conditions where one method doesn't work.Further, You shouldn't have your redundant items in the same pack; but in different locations against lost of one container.

[wareagle69]

hunter63, have to strongly disaggree with you, i have shown this to many many people over and over again, i put my firesteel in the water for any duration and within seconds of pulling it out of the water i am able to get sparks from it.
hoosierarcher- i agree to a point, the method that i teach is what is refered to as the "layering" method pockts, vest,daypack, rucksack

[hunter63]

hunter63, have to strongly disaggree with you, i have shown this to many many people over and over again, i put my firesteel in the water for any duration and within seconds of pulling it out of the water i am able to get sparks from it.
hoosierarcher- i agree to a point, the method that i teach is what is refered to as the "layering" method pockts, vest,daypack, rucksack

You may very well be right, as I haven't had the good/bad? fortune to try it.
If you have and there was very little difference between dry and wet, it's a good thing to know.

I must have a dozen fire steels in various coats, vests, fanny packs, BOB's trucks, but as you do need something to catch the spark and tinder to start a good flame, and being lazy, I gennerally just flick my Bic.

Now if you know which rock to pick up, and carry a knife that will strike a spark, you wouldn't even need the firesteel. (still have to buy the fire steel).

Hint, even if don't live in an area that has flint/chert (rock type) around naturally, a lot of detcotive stone has flint/chert mixed in it.

[wareagle69]

funny, i just wrote about this in my other thread "book trade" i live in one of the best mining areas in the world, something like the second largest impact craters on earth, but i don't know squat about rocks, detcotive, something i will have to look into i guess, thanks for the heads up