Unemployment Growing?

**Rick** · 12-15-2009, 08:59 PM

No, the mandated changes were requiring that Rick Wagoner step down and Ed Whiteacre take over the helm. That's what I was talking about. Hey, if you can't run the ship then you can't run it. No harm but step aside if you aren't man enough to do it.

The Chrysler bailout in 1980 was an entirely different kettle of fish. Chrysler was never on a level playing field with Ford and GM. Chrysler not only lagged behind in sales but they got clobbered with the oil embargo and an influx of cheaper Jap cars. With the Lockhead bailout in 70 or 71 or whenever it just set the stage for Chrysler to beg the same thing. Chrysler was sort of a, "we gotta do it because it's American" mentality with the glut of Jap imports stacking up. In hindsight, it would have been best to let them fail AS LONG AS some investor was willing to pick up the company and move on. I think the whole automotive industry would have been better off but, that's hindsight and GM is no Chrysler.

**Camp10** · 12-15-2009, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

No, the mandated changes were requiring that Rick Wagoner step down and Ed Whiteacre take over the helm. That's what I was talking about. Hey, if you can't run the ship then you can't run it. No harm but step aside if you aren't man enough to do it.

The Chrysler bailout in 1980 was an entirely different kettle of fish. Chrysler was never on a level playing field with Ford and GM. Chrysler not only lagged behind in sales but they got clobbered with the oil embargo and an influx of cheaper Jap cars. With the Lockhead bailout in 70 or 71 or whenever it just set the stage for Chrysler to beg the same thing. Chrysler was sort of a, "we gotta do it because it's American" mentality with the glut of Jap imports stacking up. In hindsight, it would have been best to let them fail AS LONG AS some investor was willing to pick up the company and move on. I think the whole automotive industry would have been better off but, that's hindsight and GM is no Chrysler.

I'm not arguing with the facts as you have offered them but I still think that as long as GM has to directly answer to congress (and it will as long as they hold the wallet) that it will never again be able to build what the customer wants. We will see crappy hybrids and electric turds and I would rather see them die as the makers of American iron then linger as the hope and changemobile...thats all.

**BENESSE** · 12-15-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by crashdive123

I don't see all that many people bellycaching.

Originally Posted by crashdive123

You forgot - Run around like a little school girl (no offense to little school girls out there) screaming and waving your arms, all the while causing a panic of epic proportions.

I guess not.

**Rick** · 12-15-2009, 09:35 PM

I completely agree with you. Congress isn't real keen on knowing what folks want just what they should have. Anywhoooooo. The hope is the Mr. Whiteacre can either turn it around or offload it and get the heck out of the car business all together. At least Mr. Wagoner didn't have the option of staying at the helm.

**BENESSE** · 12-15-2009, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

The hope is the Mr. Whiteacre can either turn it around or offload it and get the heck out of the car business all together.

Just the fact that Whitacre was plucked from semi-obscurity after a lukewarm career punctuated by abject mediocrity at AT&T is not only puzzling, but immediately makes the entire “new age” GM board suspect right along with him.
In his previous executive life Whitacre was known as an arrogant know-it-all who was never wrong, never listened to reasoned advice and who brought absolutely nothing to the table of his own on a day-in, day-out basis.
So I'm not holding my breath.

**pocomoonskyeyes** · 12-15-2009, 10:32 PM

BENNESSE- Have you ever been out of a job in a situation such as we have now? Have you ever had to go out and get a job, when accepting that job only means that you will not make enough money to pay NORMAL living expenses? Have you ever been in such a situation as you so easily criticize? It is obvious to me at least that you haven't. It is easy to play "Armchair quarterback" and an entirely different one to actually be in the game with several guys weighing 250# wanting nothing more than to take your head off. It is very easy to sit there and watch someone out there drowning,and calmly say "well they never should have went swimming in the first place". You see I have been in that situation,I honestly wish it were as easy as you make it sound.

Rick are you saying that those inefficient overpriced vehicle companies employees, are more important than ALL the other Americans that have lost their jobs? You know the ones that I'm talking about, the ones that worked for companies that decided that it was better to play safe BEFORE they got in trouble. The same ones that TARP money would have saved that actually Outnumber ALL car company employees!! The same ones that would actually have been cheaper to the American taxpayer in the long run. The same ones that people are "Bellyaching" about taking "Taxpayer" money by filing for unemployment insurance (that actually the employers pay for not the Taxpayers.)? That makes no sense. Save 200,000 jobs for what was it 40 million,billion whatever, when millions of jobs could have been saved for less money.
That the banks that got TARP money are more important than the ones that would have taken their place had they fallen? Wasn't Bank of America one of those? The SAME Bank of America that REFUSED to fly the American flag(after they had taken TARP money I might add),until enough people started closing accounts with them that they decided that money was more important than a piece of cloth? Yeah let's prop those ingrates up.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Well I say let's not prop them up,let's push them over the edge!! Did they help you a small business man? Don't jobs provided by small businesses EXCEED those provided by the BIG businesses? Sure sounds like the "Good Ole Boys" helping out their buddies in the "Good Ole Boys Club" to me.
I hope everyone that has accounts with those banks go and close their accounts tomorrow! That every AMERICAN refuse to buy a car from ANY foreign maker or those that took TARP money. GM, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, SAAB, Subaru....all of them! Buy from an American company that did NOT take the bailout money!! Oh yeah that means buy a Ford...Americas oldest car manufacturer. Oh never mind that just isn't dignified. THAT would never work,that would make them a Monopoly and then the Gov't. would have to step in and break it up into smaller companies. Oh well it was a good idea anyway.... That is still what I plan on doing. I won't own another foreign vehicle(Oh I forgot almost all the parts are made overseas anyway) HMMM... Maybe we should have listened to all the WWII vets all those years ago. You know the ones I'm talking about the die hard, hard cases that would not buy "Jap crap" or "Heimie mobiles". That's why I will never own a Japanese, German or other Foreign company vehicle. Never have never will. Maybe then Detroit wouldn't be in trouble now.

**Chiefman** · 12-15-2009, 11:21 PM

I do not write much on here but do read on the forum from time to time. This topic has caught my interest however and I like the insight that some of you are giving with respect to our current state of affairs with the economy. It does seem surprising to me that when I watch television and listen to the radio that we are conveniently being misdirected as to why we are where we are, in my opinion.

I have been in engineering for over 23 years in industry. Mainly automotive and consumer products. Throughout my career I found that we as a nation have been sold down the river by many corporations and their leaders by their seeking cost reductions that inevitably went to the likes of China, Mexico, India, and Brazil just to name a few.

The process is pretty easy actually and they have it down to a science. They send prints over for quote that gives a yearly usage (EAU), receive a quote in about two weeks, they make a years worth of the product and they ship the inventory over that was agreed upon. Most companies within China will house the inventory in a warehouse at a distribution center like in California.

Anyone that is in manufacturing can tell you that if most American companies were able to make a years worth of inventory at one time that they could compete just as effectively as China. The problems that most companies experience that purchase there products from China is quality. China has no accountability within their system and quality is secondary. Just look at the recalls. Companies that have quality problems are typically at fault because their prints for the product that were sent for quote were typically not documented very well and most companies overseas are quick to find the errors in the drawings and be at "No Fault" when the part does not conform to Form, Fit, and Function. Most companies that have this problem are faced with reworking the product or using it "as is" and pass it on to us the consumer.

The other part of the problem with sending products overseas is that most other countries do not have an issue with obtaining prints to copy the design and making it cheaper and at a lower cost then sell it to America as competition to their original customer. Countries like China are also government funded and are given money to setup a plant with equipment to operate. They are also encouraged to steal products from American companies. There is no ACLU, Unions, FMLA, HIPPA, Lawyers and regulatory boards. They are out for one thing; to bury us as a country to where we go so far in debt from all the money that we borrow from China just to keep from going totally bankrupt. Guess what? We are bankrupt and China is cashing in on most of the debts. They now have interests in housing and land developments as well. Check it out for yourself if you do not believe me.

Look around you and look at the back of your products that you buy. Where are they made? Then I ask, Where are the jobs going to come from if most everything is being made overseas? Service oriented jobs? How are service oriented jobs going to boost the economy? They will not.

I left a few companies out of principle because of the corporate philosophy that it was okay to sell our futures down the river just so the bonuses would still be there at the end of the year.

If anyone thinks this problem is going to get better I am sorry but I do not buy in to their philosophy.

**Ken** · 12-15-2009, 11:48 PM

Chiefman, that was an outstanding post. Thank you for your insight!

**rwc1969** · 12-15-2009, 11:49 PM

I'm not a union worker, but, considering that on average, 50% of the cost of a vehicle, or anything else we buy, is in marketing expenses I highly doubt the unions, or blue collar workers in general, are to blame for the downfall of the american auto industry or any other industry for that matter. What is? Greed and selfishness! by all parties involved, us included.

and Benessee, I said I agree with your thought process, but in reality it just doesn't work.

Maybe one day you will be forced into a situation that you can't reasonably get out of and you will then know how it feels. Using acronyms and buzzwords is all fine until those words become a reality. People can sit at their computer and and say they'd do this or that when they lose their job, suffer a medical problem that keeps them from continuing in their previous line of work, or when the SHTF, but until it does and they do it, I ain't puttin much weight in their words.

With all due respect to certain members of this board, I don't think anyone here can say they truly are living primitively. If they were they wouldn't be here. How can you live primitively and have internet access? By rubbing two stones together? LOL! If someone here is living very close to primitively I totally respect them for it. But, let's say they have a sudden attack of appendicitis where are they gonna go? To the hospital! That's not living primitively. How are they gonna get there? Most likely by plane or helicopter. That's not primitive! How are they gonna call for help? by cell phone, internet or satellite phone. Brother, that ain't primitive. I don't care how you slice it. It might be close, but it ain't primitive. How do they buy salt, medicine and such? With money! That ain't primitive either.

I would like to live primitively, but in reality that's impossible as long as this society stays afloat. That boat sailed over the horizon many moons ago and it ain't going away anytime soon.

**Rick** · 12-16-2009, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Poco

Rick are you saying that those inefficient overpriced vehicle companies employees, are more important than ALL the other Americans that have lost their jobs?

Actually, just the opposite. All those folks that you talked about in your post would be unemployed. There are very few "executives" (I don't know how far down the food chain you want to go) at GM when compared to worker bees. It's the worker bees that would be hurt the most by letting GM fall.

As to TARP money, with a few notable exceptions, that money was not spent on failing banks. It was given to banks in perfectly sound financial order to entice them to make lending easier, which they didn't do. Don't get me started on that. One really dumb decision in my book.

@Chiefman - On the core, it was a good post. However, it isn't a China issue. We were outsourcing to Japan in the mid 70s and beyond because they were cheap providers of goods. The same is true of some other far and middle east countries as well as Mexico. China is just the current passing ship. The next continent will be Africa. Once wages in China catch up then we'll seek some other place to make our goods. That almost certainly has to be Africa.

Quite a phenomenon occurred in this country in the mid 70s into the 80s. We began to transition from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy. Personally, I think it was a huge mistake on our part but it's hind sight. Part of that was driven by foreign countries subsidizing cheap export goods like steel and cars that we then imported. And you have to take into account the whole financial/political thingy of protectionism. Anyway, it's a lot more complicated that just saying we shouldn't let China make goods or buy our property. It really is an American thing. If I have a building and want to sell it, I can...to anyone that will buy it. You don't want to stop that.

**Rick** · 12-16-2009, 08:50 AM

As to everyone that is pounding on Benesse. Actually, she's a lot closer to reality than folks realize. First and foremost you have to protect yourself. You do that by seriously looking at your circumstances and constantly challenging yourself as to whether or not you are currently in the best position.

Let me give you an analogy. If you live on the edge of a cliff then you have to understand that there is a potential danger there. You might walk off the edge during the night or the face edge might slide off taking you with it. Likewise, you have to examine whether you are positioned correctly in the work-a-day world.

Sitting in the same job for 20 years and not improving your skills, education or credentials is a dangerous thing to do. Any outside force that acts contrary to the stability of your job puts you at risk. Sure, it's easy not to improve yourself but danged dangerous, too.

You should be looking at your company and asking if your job is part of the core business. You should be trying to figure out where the most secure departments are and where they will be 5 or 10 years down the road. You should also be investing in yourself by additional training. That might mean some additional licenses, gaining more skills or even (God forbid) going back to school.

I'll share this real life experience to illustrate my point. Around 1997 or so I had a very good friend that worked in the payphone side of the business. I cautioned him that payphones might not be a part of the core business because technology was quickly impacting them (think cell phones). I suggested he might want to look at another piece of the business that was more core related (oh, I don't know...maybe CELL PHONES). Nope. Payphones will be around forever, he said. I rest my case. (By the way, he did lose his job because they downsized on the payphone side).

If you sit on your laurels, and most folks do just that, then when TSHTF in the economy or in your business world you are going to be ill equipment to ride out the problem. Then you can wring your hands and blame everyone else. Or...you can put as much preparation into yourself as you do into your BOB and you might just be in a decent position if and when something bad happens with your job.

**BENESSE** · 12-16-2009, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes

BENNESSE- Have you ever been out of a job in a situation such as we have now?
YES! For me it seemed like the end of the world at the time.
Have you ever had to go out and get a job, when accepting that job only means that you will not make enough money to pay NORMAL living expenses?
Again, YES! I worked multiple odd jobs, sleeping less than 4 hrs. That went on for 6 months 'til I got a real job in my profession. I knocked myself out in those jobs so much, that the people were still calling 2 years later to get me back for more work. I cleaned homes, stocked shelves, painted furniture in a church, baby sat young and old and did free-lance in my profession. My normal living expenses were down-scaled even further since I NEVER lived above my means. I didn't have a car, and I walked or took PT everywhere. (Still do).
When I looked for work, I went in with a list of references (so people could check and see I wasn't insane) and always asked for way less than the going rate. More often than not, I ended up getting huge tips that were always accompanied with " Just can't take advantage of someone who is working this hard".

Have you ever been in such a situation as you so easily criticize? It is obvious to me at least that you haven't.
Yes I have, which is precisely what inspired me to say what I said.
It is easy to play "Armchair quarterback" and an entirely different one to actually be in the game with several guys weighing 250# wanting nothing more than to take your head off. It is very easy to sit there and watch someone out there drowning,and calmly say "well they never should have went swimming in the first place". You see I have been in that situation,I honestly wish it were as easy as you make it sound.

Poco, I haven't been through what you had but then I wasn't talking about that nor would I presume to know anything about it. And I didn't think I was criticizing but merely pointing out the obvious.
Which particular point do you take issue with?
That instead of sitting around for free, it's better to make SOME money than NO money?
Or that one shouldn't buy stuff they can't afford?
Or is it the one about using those survival skills where you do whatever it takes to survive?
If I'm wrong, then I have obviously misjudged the audience. Some of you have the advantage of personally knowing each other which I don't.

**pocomoonskyeyes** · 12-16-2009, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

As to everyone that is pounding on Benesse. Actually, she's a lot closer to reality than folks realize. First and foremost you have to protect yourself. You do that by seriously looking at your circumstances and constantly challenging yourself as to whether or not you are currently in the best position.

Originally Posted by BENESSE

Poco, I haven't been through what you had but then I wasn't talking about that nor would I presume to know anything about it. And I didn't think I was criticizing but merely pointing out the obvious.
Which particular point do you take issue with
That instead of sitting around for free, it's better to make SOME money than NO money?
Or that one shouldn't buy stuff they can't afford?
Or is it the one about using those survival skills where you do whatever it takes to survive?
If I'm wrong, then I have obviously misjudged the audience. Some of you have the advantage of personally knowing each other which I don't.

OK I owe you an apology it Seems. Please accept my apology.I guess I was kinda' hard on you in Particular. I am Really more Mad at the situation than anyone here or anywhere, Except for those that are in a situation to help our current dilemma but Don't/Won't.
You see I am like some others here, Unemployed....again. To be quite honest I am scared - Not for myself, but for my family. I am probably a little oversensitive to some remarks about those that are unemployed.Since I am one. Something I haven't said publicly before. Shame is a part of that "Not Telling". Yes I am ashamed to be unemployed,That just isn't who I am.
If I could get a Lawyer to return my calls I do in have a case of Discrimination. None will.... so much for the theory that they are Ambulance Chasers. It is a case that could be won not because of State Labor Laws, But because the company violated it's OWN rules. Long Complicated story, which I won't go into here. The Department of Labor Ref said I should NEVER been fired in the first place.( Ky. has a No reason for dismissal policy too if that tells you anything)
I have tried to do as you have said. One job that was a possibility that "Fell through" was picking up rocks in a pasture/field and removing them. Slow, laborious, Backbreaking work... Which I would have been glad to do. But they apparently do not have the money to pay for that as they have never got back in touch with me. Anyway... It just seems that no one has the money to hire anyone,Those that are hiring hire someone else.
You see I said that there are easily 20-30 people applying for each job opening there is here....Same pretty much everywhere I have looked,Not just locally either. I do have a possibility left but won't be able to go after that for another month or two. It seems that the ones that get hired are either younger or pretty or whatever reason.They know the family that sort of thing. I'm looking for anything. Yes anything that pays,minimum wage or whatever. The only possibility That I see is not coming open for a month or two. (New Factory opening here...IF they even open)
As for Relocating.yes I would, but you can't relocate unless/until you can be assured of a job.
So yeah, Right now I hate NAFTA,TARP,anything that could even be a possible reason, For me not having a job. Don't even mention a Politician. That is one good thing about here politics is a no-no.
Yes I am Bitter. Yes I am Cranky.Yes I am Frustrated. Yes I am Looking. One reason I haven't been on here so much lately.When I am it is an Escape...sort of..most of the time. I keep the Computer as it is much cheaper than the gas it takes to look for a job(I went for an interview 75 miles away... Didn't get it even though the other Applicant had less experience... They lived closer,and were single.)

Any way I have no good reason to take it out on you. I apologize. I've gotta' get off here anyway. Gotta' go see what is out there.... If anything.

**BENESSE** · 12-16-2009, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes

I've gotta' get off here anyway. Gotta' go see what is out there.... If anything.

Good luck Poco!
I'll say a prayer that it all works out for the best.

**rwc1969** · 12-16-2009, 01:16 PM

Another thing to consider is some people actually live paycheck to paycheck.

When they lose their job they don't have money saved to relocate or go to school. It costs money!

Some people are overqualified for low paying jobs and companies won't hire them. At the same time they are underqualified for others. The only jobs they are qualified for are non-existent or filled by people who are in the same boat.

I guess when I hear people talking about relocating, taking low paying jobs, going back to school, etc. It lets me know that they have never been in this type of situation and have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. They're just repeating what they've heard. Because if they did they would know it's not as easy as it sounds. Once you start crunching numbers it don't add up. Going to school costs money and so does relocating. How is someone gonna do either of these if they currently have no money? NWLB? LOL! That's a joke and unless you've tried you have no idea.

**Chiefman** · 12-16-2009, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ken

Chiefman, that was an outstanding post. Thank you for your insight!

Thank you Ken

**pocomoonskyeyes** · 12-16-2009, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by BENESSE

Good luck Poco!
I'll say a prayer that it all works out for the best.

Thanks BENNESSE I need all the help I can get!! I appreciate it.

**Rick** · 12-16-2009, 11:31 PM

Poco - If you haven't done so already. Sign up for unemployment and also with Manpower. They might only find you a temporary job but it might get you through.

Here's several pages of jobs in your area. Most are in Bowling Green but there are several posted.

http://jobsearch.monster.com/Search....p=25&dv=1&re=5

RWC - No offense but most of that was just excuses. I'd venture a guess that most on here have either been hand to mouth or job hunting at some time in their life. I sure have been.

School is an absolute possibility I don't care who you are, how old you are, or what your status is. There are government agencies will to pay for your schooling in exchange for your service. Yeah, the military is one but so does the FBI, CIA, and a host of other agencies.

Many communities will pay for your schooling in the health care field if you agree to serve X amount of time in their community when you graduate.

Many companies finance tuition aid. Find one that does and try to hire on.

There are scholarships and loans available. For those in low income brackets the government pays a fixed amount to the school, the school deducts their fees and forwards a check for the remainder directly to you.

Originally Posted by RWC

It lets me know that they have never been in this type of situation and have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Don't just toss out that if someone mentions school they've obviously never been there. I danged sure have been. I put myself through 8 years of college going at night and working in the day and raising three kids. My wife got her RN doing the same thing. What I did was figure out a way to make it happen and got off my A$$ and did it.