Unemployment Growing?

**2dumb2kwit** · 12-15-2009, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

What do you tell all the employees of GM if you just "let them fail". Or Wells Fargo or any of the other bail out beasts? Don't you think there comes a point when a company is SO large that it's cheaper to bail them out than to suffer the impact of their failure. After all, it's not just the CEO and BODs. It's all the employees, suppliers, delivery folks, parts dealers, dealerships, body shops, etc. etc. All of them could go under as a result. Think for a moment the impact that would have on the economy. According to wiki they employ 244,500 employees world wide. Probably four or five times that number rely on them as suppliers, manufacturers and other related industry. If GM goes down then you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 million give or take suddenly without incomes. So it's not that easy to just "let them fail".

I see two ways of looking at this.
1. They are to big to fail. In which case we need to make laws that keep this from ever happening again. Don't let any company get "to big to fail".

or
2. Let them fail. We will still need the same number of cars, so someone else will build them...and employ the people and suppliers, etc. The strong companies will thrive.

**canid** · 12-15-2009, 07:39 PM

this isn't a question of denying jobs to struggling workers, but one of the integrity not to make them believe their ship isn't sinking already.

all the bailout upholds of the facade of security, and the illusion that the wheels are still turning soundly.

if a bank is insolvent, juggling the numbers to make it it stand a bit longer is worthless, and a deceit unless it's honestly treated as an attempt to ease it's fall.

if your house has termites, do you sweep away the powdery piles and slop on fresh paint, continuing all the while to live there until it falls on top of you?

**Rick** · 12-15-2009, 07:41 PM

It's one thing for Johnie's Hardware to close the doors. The impact to Johnie is horrendous. But the impact of GM closing it's doors might just be too much for the economy to absorb. That's the fear anyway. Right or wrong. I'm not against keeping business afloat and seeing some mandated changes at the helm made it a tad more appetizing but there should be some penalty for any group that allows the company to get into that state of disrepair. For certain they should not be there to help bail it out. If someone in that company has to go it should be from the top down. Just my .02

**crashdive123** · 12-15-2009, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

What do you tell all the employees of GM if you just "let them fail". Or Wells Fargo or any of the other bail out beasts? Don't you think there comes a point when a company is SO large that it's cheaper to bail them out than to suffer the impact of their failure. After all, it's not just the CEO and BODs. It's all the employees, suppliers, delivery folks, parts dealers, dealerships, body shops, etc. etc. All of them could go under as a result. Think for a moment the impact that would have on the economy. According to wiki they employ 244,500 employees world wide. Probably four or five times that number rely on them as suppliers, manufacturers and other related industry. If GM goes down then you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 million give or take suddenly without incomes. So it's not that easy to just "let them fail".

I hear ya, but disagree. Restructuring under bankruptcy might have worked. The unions say that they had given up enough already (I disagree) so were unwilling to go any further. They are not the only ones at fault in this particular example though. Executive pay - probably out of line, but in the big scheme of things not as big a deal. The biggest problem for the automobile manufacturers (all of them) was government regulation. The government (local, state and federal) passes restrictive laws that did not allow the free market of business to properly work. The UAW is a big part of the problem, but so is the government.

**canid** · 12-15-2009, 07:44 PM

do you think we'll all just fall over and die because the recession cuts too deep?

would such a thing be painfull? undoubtedly. is it worse than compounding the problem by misleading the public into moving along like nothing is wrong? i doubt it.

**BENESSE** · 12-15-2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

2. Let them fail. We will still need the same number of cars, so someone else will build them...and employ the people and suppliers, etc. The strong companies will thrive.

Sure, I'll just buy foreign. It's built better anyway.

**Rick** · 12-15-2009, 07:46 PM

Take a look at the CAFE rules and you might not feel that way. The government passes a law that says fuel mileage should be x by year Y and then gives the auto industry bonus points to jack up their mileage numbers so they can meet the law. That's just dumb in my book. GM can advertise 30 MPG on an SUV not because it really gets it but because the SUV had a hybrid engine so the real 20 MPG that it gets has an added 10 MPG bonus. We wind up using more gas because of it.

**Rick** · 12-15-2009, 07:46 PM

Sweety it's all foreign.

**2dumb2kwit** · 12-15-2009, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by crashdive123

I hear ya, but disagree. Restructuring under bankruptcy might have worked. The unions say that they had given up enough already (I disagree) so were unwilling to go any further. They are not the only ones at fault in this particular example though. Executive pay - probably out of line, but in the big scheme of things not as big a deal. The biggest problem for the automobile manufacturers (all of them) was government regulation. The government (local, state and federal) passes restrictive laws that did not allow the free market of business to properly work. The UAW is a big part of the problem, but so is the government.

WELL SAID! No wonder you have two of those little green squares.

**2dumb2kwit** · 12-15-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by BENESSE

Sure, I'll just buy foreign. It's built better anyway.

You would probably be amazed at what comes from where.

**Camp10** · 12-15-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

It's one thing for Johnie's Hardware to close the doors. The impact to Johnie is horrendous. But the impact of GM closing it's doors might just be too much for the economy to absorb. That's the fear anyway. Right or wrong. I'm not against keeping business afloat and seeing some mandated changes at the helm made it a tad more appetizing but there should be some penalty for any group that allows the company to get into that state of disrepair. For certain they should not be there to help bail it out. If someone in that company has to go it should be from the top down. Just my .02

Mandated changes at the helm? That would be the US congress..I'm sure they can turn out a great car! I am a diehard GM guy but I say let them fail. They already have failed, they are just going to have to die a long and horrible death. Dodge did this in the late 70's and in my opinion, they have not made anything worth owning after about 72.

**canid** · 12-15-2009, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Camp10

Mandated changes at the helm? That would be the US congress..I'm sure they can turn out a great car! I am a diehard GM guy but I say let them fail. They already have failed, they are just going to have to die a long and horrible death. Dodge did this in the late 70's and in my opinion, they have not made anything worth owning after about 72.

i have to agree. that's just a further example of the kind of window dressing i'm objecting to. lace around the border won't change the picture outside the window.

i hope people will learn to recognize it when they see it.

**BENESSE** · 12-15-2009, 08:26 PM

I just can't figure out one thing to save my life. Somebody please help me out here.
Everyone on this forum is heavily into preparing and surviving TSHTF & TEOTWAWKI. In fact some even seem to wish for it in some S&M way, perhaps not because they would personally enjoy it but because they'd get to gloat over the demise of "others" who didn't prepare and have no real survival skills. The ultimate revenge and I told you so.

Well, here we are now in a pretty sorry state of affairs. For some who lost a lot, it might as well be that TS has HTF. But no one would call this THOTWAWKI.
Getting through this little hick-up in our economy should be a breeze for most around here who are by their own admission prepared for much, much worse.

So all this bellyaching just doesn't compute, at least not here from this tough bunch.
What am I missing?

**canid** · 12-15-2009, 08:31 PM

not everybody here is all that into it.

many of us are here because we love the outdoors, and love the DIY spirit and the confidence leanring many of these skills can foster.

**BENESSE** · 12-15-2009, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by canid

not everybody here is all that into it.

many of us are here because we love the outdoors, and love the DIY spirit and the confidence leanring many of these skills can foster.

I was referring only to those who ARE into it by their own admission.

**crashdive123** · 12-15-2009, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by BENESSE

I just can't figure out one thing to save my life. Somebody please help me out here.
Everyone on this forum is heavily into preparing and surviving TSHTF & TEOTWAWKI. In fact some even seem to wish for it in some S&M way, perhaps not because they would personally enjoy it but because they'd get to gloat over the demise of "others" who didn't prepare and have no real survival skills. The ultimate revenge and I told you so.

Well, here we are now in a pretty sorry state of affairs. For some who lost a lot, it might as well be that TS has HTF. But no one would call this THOTWAWKI.
Getting through this little hick-up in our economy should be a breeze for most around here who are by their own admission prepared for much, much worse.

So all this bellyaching just doesn't compute, at least not here from this tough bunch.
What am I missing?

I don't see all that many people bellycaching.

**canid** · 12-15-2009, 08:38 PM

i can understand.

some people just like being contrary. i'll admit that at least in good spirit, it can be fun. i wouldn't take anything said on the internet too seriously, but sure; it can frustrate and bedevil.