Can you get comfy with it?

[Ken]

You also have to remember that what that 1% paid for in 1935 is a far cry from what is being paid out today.

But let's not forget that 1% of 1935 income was a lot less then than it is today.

That's the point. Percentages. Whenever the government increases the percentage you pay for ANY tax, they claim a bigger share of the pie.

The pie gets bigger every year with (even minimal) inflation. However, government just keeps taking a larger percent of that larger pie each year, and the piece of that larger pie that's left for us is getting smaller.

Government spending is now out of control. It's reckless, irresponsible, and poses a bigger threat to our national security and world standing than any foreign power has ever been able to do. We are really on the brink of becoming a third world socialist debtor nation.

In case people don't realize it, the government is effectively controlling, in some way, every decision and purchase and choice we make in our lives, and is taxing and mandating us to death in the process.

[rebel]

You also have to remember that what that 1% paid for in 1935 is a far cry from what is being paid out today.

...the slippery slope for vote. What now, after all the pay programs?

[old soldier]

I don't believe we've seen an end to the recession, just a start of a real bad depression. everyday there are more signs, the market going up with worthless paper and the same millionairs making more millions. gold going up and the dollar going down, unemployment up over 10% with the real figure being over 17%. houses and autos still being reposessed, tent cities popping up all over, everyday, more home invasions,even illegals going home because they can't find work. the other day there was a headline that said 69 million people in the US that can't afford to eat healthy meals. some people may get a real wake up call in a few yrs when the dollar is worthless and bread is 7 bucks a loaf and coffee is 15 bucks a pound.
The people who are out of debt, live on a few acreas and can support them selves will have the best chance, the rest will see hard times like the great depression never saw and we done it to our selves, everything is run by large corporations, even the government, when we let the family farms go,that was the beginning of the end. they're not there to feed America again, we're at the mercy of big business and forign countries.
all we need is a little push to get the ball started, like Israel attacking Iran and have the Strait of Harmuz closed up. things may not happen overnight and there may be a few yrs, but i believe they're comming.
JMO.

[old soldier]

We NEED a Constitutional Amendment limiting all federal taxes combined (Income, FICA, Medical) to 10%.

NO FEDERAL MANDATES requiring anyone to purchase anything. Sorry, but I am NOT inclined to substitute some jack@ss politicians judgment for my own when it comes to deciding what I need.

The feds should concentrate on national defense, law enforcement, transportation, certain environmental protection issues, food safety, and the like. It should mind its own F'n business and stay out of matters involving of education, studying cow farts, redistribution of wealth, deciding on who my doctor should be, and bailing out foreign countries and foreign corporations.

And when I see a homeless person here, it pisses me off to realize that MY tax dollars are being used to build schools in some foreign place with a name I can't even pronounce. Maybe if our government wasn't bleeding us dry, we could afford to contribute more to organizations like the Salvation Army that actually spend the donations they receive for their intended uses.

TERM LIMITS AND ELECTED JUDGES NOW!!!!!

I'd like to start with Term Limits for all elected offices, the president is limited, the people who really make the decission are there for life.

[Winnie]

A take on this from over the pond.

Petrol(gas) average £1.08p a litre approx £5 a gallon.

Income tax is on a sliding scale depending on income. Starting at 10% for £2000 and under, up to 40% in excess of 34,000

The average house price is £160,000 for a 2 bed property

National insurance (social fund NHS) is 11% of your weekly earnings, if you earn over £110, if you earn ove £810 per week there's a sliding scale added on to that.

Road tax is measured on an emissions sliding scale. For a small efficient car of about 900cc it's £35 going up to £405 for a 4 wheel drive inefficient job.

A small 2 bedroomed house is £550 per month to rent.

Council tax(I think you'd call them local taxes) depending on where you live vary between £90 and £200 per month.(that's just my area)

VAT is 15% on everything, including luxury foodstuffs(chocolate, cookies etc)

That dozen oranges would cost over £3

A loaf of decent bread is £1.10p

Just a snapshot of living costs over here in the UK

Don't forget to multiply these prices by 1.68 to get the dollar equivalent.

And yes I am using my vote!

[Pal334]

I do appreciate your point of view.

Gas will continue to climb and so will everything else. Nothing is being done for it not to increase in price.Send the dissatification to your elected officials VOTE

Food prices will also climb.

New Jersey residents are paying 65% in taxes. I am a longtime resident of the Peoples Republic of NJ. Although we are paying heavy taxes ( amongst the highest in the nation), it is no wheres near 65%

Unemployment can be twice the reported. Maybe, 20%+.

Eviction...money talks and BS walks. The BS could work short term.

SS, yea the name will be around. You'll get the same no matter what you paid into the fund.

401, I don't know of anyone who didn't loose no matter what their investments were.Not sure where you got that from. I lost nothing, lucked out with a principle preservation of Government securities.

Pension, PBGC max is 24k. That's before taxes.

Why hide the truth?

I try to avoid generalizations, they seem very unproductive. And are defeatist, everyone, get of you a** and participate in the system and work for improvement!!!

[your_comforting_company]

What if...

1. Gas is $7.99 a gallon.
I couldn't afford it when it was $4 a gallon. All I can do is increase my labor charge to make up the difference, do less riding around, and perhaps start a coalition for fuel options
2. Bread is $5.95 a loaf.
We will have to go back to making our own bread. hopefully the gaia gardening book will help me with raising grains before bread goes that high.
Everything is more than double what you're paying now and if you have a job, your taxes are 70%.
There are ways to hide certain amounts of your income...
3. Perhaps you lost your job, the savings are almost gone and no employment is in sight. Double digit unemployment will be the base line.
I did lose my job, had no savings because I really didn't make enough money to put any away. Self-employment is the only option and you won't be working for money, but rather food, clothing, shelter (like homestead farming) and seed.
4. You can't pay the mortgage, rent or taxes so, you're evicted.
Luckily I bought my property for a fraction of todays prices from family. In the case of many who ARE in that situation, surely there is something you can trade (time and labor, or food) The mortgage lenders will be in the same boat as you, lets not forget. They will be hungry and cold too and would probably be willing to work for you so they'll have basic necessities.
5. Crime is a big problem.
This is true now. folks know not to be screwin around on my property. I shoot first and ask questions later. booby traps make good deterrents, and so do dead bodies hanging in the trees.
6. Your child needs medical help and you can't get it.
Thats exactly how I live right now. no big difference then or now for us.
7. Social security...gone.
My grandma lives off a little more than $300 a month from SS. It's almost gone now and I'm pretty sure it won't be there when I'm old (If I live long enough to be "old"
8. 401...gone.
I haven't had a 401k plan since I lost my first job over 10 years ago. 401k is a joke. I'm not going to participate in it anyway. It is the perpetuation of speculation of future worth. Can I borrow that crystal ball? oh wait.. thats a magic 8-ball? nevermind...
9. Pension...gone.
Pension? What pension? I've never had one.

What's your long term game plan? I say long term because you know it won't be quick.
Learn more about living off the land, getting by with less, and living comfortably without "modern" technology and programs. Be less dependent on others and more independent as a family or group.
Well, say hello to the new world order of equality.
I only wish we could be equal. the way I see it, those that are dependent on money and finances will get eaten because they will be the first to starve. In the end, there will only be survivors that have learned to do more with less and found independence from the corporate government profit machine.

The first order of business is to regulate how much politicians can make. I feel that anyone who is going to represent the whole of america cannot be "rich". to truly feel it at the gas pump and grocery store they need to be as poor as me. $8 a gallon for gas isn't frightening to someone who makes $250k a year, though it is a horror story for anyone making $21k a year. Our representatives should be models of the people they represent.
Personally I'm sick of people running my life that haven't got a clue what it means to live like I do.
No politician should make over $35k a year and should not be allowed to have any other business or income other than what they earn from representing THE PEOPLE.

I might've gone off the deep end here, but you asked and I really don't think this future is that far off.

Rick, what was the price of 1 acre of land in 1960 vs. 1969 vs. 2009. 50 years got how much inflation exactly? 1 acre of land right here in the heart of rural america is $10k per acre and you'll be hard pressed to find it that cheap. 6.5 acres = a $65k mortgage and that is with nothing but trees on the land. This is for sale right now on the south side of town. If I spend every dime I earn on the land it would take me 6 years or more to pay for it, not counting all the taxes I already have to pay, or any other expenses.

economic collapse is coming. Hopefully I'll be ready.

[crashdive123]

Rick, what was the price of 1 acre of land in 1960 vs. 1969 vs. 2009. 50 years got how much inflation exactly? 1 acre of land right here in the heart of rural america is $10k per acre and you'll be hard pressed to find it that cheap. 6.5 acres = a $65k mortgage and that is with nothing but trees on the land. This is for sale right now on the south side of town. If I spend every dime I earn on the land it would take me 6 years or more to pay for it, not counting all the taxes I already have to pay, or any other expenses.

It's probably unfair to address just one point of your post, but who says life is fair? Land, along with any other product, service, commodity, etc. is worth what people will pay for it. Here's a personal example - My MIL owns 54 acres. The land adjacent to hers sold for $16,000 per acre by a big developer (several hundred acres). The developer is not developing due to the economy. They may never develop - or at least not for a long time. Right now, she'd take $1000 an acre. No takers. My point is - stuff is worth what people will pay for it. Right now people are paying half of what they did for homes in my area (I thought they were way overpriced 5 years ago).

[Rick]

You guys are dealing in hypotheticals. What ifs? I can't and won't deal with that. It just isn't realistic or productive. I'm certainly not trying to hide the truth only offer my opinion as unpopular as it seams to be.

I look at past business cycles over the course of our existence, at current trends and then try to guess the future based on what I'm seeing. I do that for my own planning. I do that for my family.

Everyone wants to think the worst and that's okay. The fact is business cycles are...well...cyclical. This is no different than many many others that the country has faced. It's certainly deeper than most but then we were higher than most up cycles, too. This trough was inevitable and, personally, I took steps several years ago to place myself in as good a position as possible to be prepared for the down cycle. Experience it. Remember it because once we get through this it WILL happen again. It's just part of the cycle. And every time a down cycle hits everyone proclaims this one to be the big one. This is it. The end of the economy. What it is, is an excellent time to invest in the market because stocks are super cheap.

Will all the things come to pass that you posted? Who knows. I don't think unemployment will reach 15%. I don't think gas will hit $8 a gallon. Read YCCs comment. That's exactly what I was talking about. Those costs are passed along to the consumer and gas at that rate will have a dragging affect on the economy. I don't think the government will allow it for that reason. As I said, in the near term.

All of the things we've talked about before still apply. Limit your debt load, protect your credit rating because that translates to cheaper debt, be frugal in your expenditures and pay off any high interest debt you have like credit cards. If you do those things then you begin to see that regardless of the shape of the economy the only true indicator of your ability to weather it is the shape of YOUR economy. And, as Pal said, participate in the electoral process. You can make change from the inside.

[your_comforting_company]

Rick speaks the truth. we would all be wise to listen

[Pal334]

Over all, I agree with Rick.
Personally the only difference (not really a disagrement) is : "What it is, is an excellent time to invest in the market because stocks are super cheap." I am staying with more conservative Government securities. I recognize the lower interest rates and growth potential (but has to date at least preserved the principle). But I have determined that as long as the morons on Wall Street play free and easy without significant penalty for misconduct I am staying out of stocks (just a personal decision)

[Winnie]

The different ways our two governments handle things fascinates me, Rick said your govt wouldn't allow petrol to reach $8 a gallon we're alredy paying nearly that much.
I agree these things are cyclical, but when some things go up, the price never seems to go down when things get better.

I was going to add something else, but it would have got political and I know the rules!

[BENESSE]

All of the things we've talked about before still apply. Limit your debt load, protect your credit rating because that translates to cheaper debt, be frugal in your expenditures and pay off any high interest debt you have like credit cards. If you do those things then you begin to see that regardless of the shape of the economy the only true indicator of your ability to weather it is the shape of YOUR economy. And, as Pal said, participate in the electoral process. You can make change from the inside.

For me it all really comes down to this paragraph.

If you follow the advice, you'll be in a better shape then if you don't.
And some sense of control over your life might help get you through the funk that's so easy to succumb to during these challenging times.

[Winnie]

Yep Bee, Rick hit the nail on the head. I have no debt, I was brought up to believe you got something when you could afford to pay for it outright. If you can't afford it, do without, just proves you don't need it anyway!

[Rick]

Pal - I have no disagreement with your statement at all. If you had said precious metals (although they are top dollar right now), land, rental property, antiques or just about anything I would agree. The key is to invest in something you believe will appreciate over time. Don't think of it as an investment in "something". Think of it as an investment in you. Government Securities vs. Stocks is one area the economy did NOT respond the way folks thought it would. When stocks are down government securities are generally high and vice versa. There is a cause and affect between the two....usually. This time around they each had a mind of their own.

If all my words were wasted ink because you are in financial trouble already then you need to consider that you have limited recourse. Increase income, decrease debt load or both. You have to figure out how that will occur. Multiple jobs, different jobs, cutting up your credit cards, selling a high expense luxury item like a boat or SUV. Only you can determine what is right for you but until you control your finances...they will control you. And you can start controlling them by putting yourself on a budget and following it.

As to the wisdom part, thanks but nothing magical about anything I said. Just real, common sense that really does work. Just back to basics stuff.

[Pal334]

Pal - I have no disagreement with your statement at all. If you had said precious metals (although they are top dollar right now), land, rental property, antiques or just about anything I would agree. The key is to invest in something you believe will appreciate over time. Don't think of it as an investment in "something". Think of it as an investment in you. Government Securities vs. Stocks is one area the economy did NOT respond the way folks thought it would. When stocks are down government securities are generally high and vice versa. There is a cause and affect between the two....usually. This time around they each had a mind of their own.

If all my words were wasted ink because you are in financial trouble already then you need to consider that you have limited recourse. Increase income, decrease debt load or both. You have to figure out how that will occur. Multiple jobs, different jobs, cutting up your credit cards, selling a high expense luxury item like a boat or SUV. Only you can determine what is right for you but until you control your finances...they will control you. And you can start controlling them by putting yourself on a budget and following it.

As to the wisdom part, thanks but nothing magical about anything I said. Just real, common sense that really does work. Just back to basics stuff.

You may be the only person with "financial advise" that I have listened to

Back to the basics, back to the basics and then when in doubt, yes,,,, go back to the basics

[2dumb2kwit]

The different ways our two governments handle things fascinates me, Rick said your govt wouldn't allow petrol to reach $8 a gallon we're alredy paying nearly that much.

You see....back when gas hit $4.00 a gal. here, people were ready to get their torches and pitchforks, and go after somebody. The polititians don't want people riled up like that, unless it's at the opposing political party. LOL

[2dumb2kwit]

I agree these things are cyclical, but when some things go up, the price never seems to go down when things get better.

See....we're not so different, after all.

[SARKY]

Rick, I love ya man! But please get your head out of the sand. This is the direction we are headed and the people didn't do this although the people voted in the idiots who did do this to us and continue to vote them in. That is the part i don't get. CA. is broke, broke, BROKE the only politicians that can be held responsible are the democrats because they have been the ones in power for 2 decades here, but they are pointing fingers everywhere else.

[2dumb2kwit]

Rick, I love ya man! But please get your head out of the sand. This is the direction we are headed and the people didn't do this although the people voted in the idiots who did do this to us and continue to vote them in. That is the part i don't get. CA. is broke, broke, BROKE the only politicians that can be held responsible are the democrats because they have been the ones in power for 2 decades here, but they are pointing fingers everywhere else.

I love to blame polititians, but that's kinda like blaming rat, for being a rat. The thing that ticks me off, and scares me, at the same time, are the friggin' idiots that don't pay attention, and keep voting for these people/rats!