America...Love it or leave it NOW!!!

**wareagle69** · 08-30-2009, 08:51 PM

exactly right and the freedom for anyone legally there to express themselves so long as it does not cause harm or infringe upon anothers rights, beleive me certain things really get to me the whole meery chritmas or happy holidays thing, i dislike folks coming here and trying to change our customs, they should adapt to where they live ... but.....they also have the right to express their opinions and veiws and embrass their cultural differences, just not force it upon others, when i go to church, i don't sing, exercising my rights not to, same as someone whereing what they want or participating in a pledge, i do not recall where in the constituiton it states you must remove your lid(common courtesy) or sing the national anthem or even stand for it for that matter, it is just a custom, that we who have grown up here are accustomed to, doesn't give us the right to force our customs upon them

**doug1980** · 08-30-2009, 09:01 PM

But I don't feel in this case she was forcing anything. While I understand your statement, it is somewhat contradicting. You say we should not force beliefs on anyone but then you get upset when we voice our dislike of it. Freedom of speech so in this case they were both right and wrong. I think the main issue here is that most Americans have respect for ourselves and others. When I was deployed we could not do many things out of respect for the host country. And we respected that....didn't like it but respected it. So why should we not seek the same respect. It has nothing to do with freedom but respect.

But to each his own I guess.

**Jonesy** · 08-30-2009, 09:15 PM

If you come to this country to live, go to school, work become a citizen then what is left if you don't honor what the American Flag stands for???

I don't care if they are Muslim or aliens from mars if you come to America then respect the symbols that are America. Do you really think this girl that is Muslim came to these thoughts on her own??? No her parents are setting her standard.

Yes she should take that thing off her head and stand in honor of the flag. If the American way is against your religion then leave. I am sick of America being treated like a place for anything goes. Wrong it is a place with foundations that are being abused by courts and the politically correct crowd that is afraid to stand for anything.

When they become a citizen here is what they declare

The oath of allegiance is:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

**pocomoonskyeyes** · 08-30-2009, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jonesy

If you come to this country to live, go to school, work become a citizen then what is left if you don't honor what the American Flag stands for???

I don't care if they are Muslim or aliens from mars if you come to America then respect the symbols that are America. Do you really think this girl that is Muslim came to these thoughts on her own??? No her parents are setting her standard.

Yes she should take that thing off her head and stand in honor of the flag. If the American way is against your religion then leave. I am sick of America being treated like a place for anything goes. Wrong it is a place with foundations that are being abused by courts and the politically correct crowd that is afraid to stand for anything.

When they become a citizen here is what they declare

The oath of allegiance is:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Yes Jonesy, but nowhere does it say "Forego your religious beliefs or ideologies. You Would not expect a Christian to remove a cross when showing respect for the flag now would you?

**Rick** · 08-30-2009, 10:13 PM

Jonesy, were you ever a 17 year old? Or a 20 year old for that matter? Always did what your parents taught. Never did ANYTHING stupid that would have reflected on them. Couldn't be a case of a kid just wanting to be different?

There's a really cute teenage girl that hoofs it around town. Dressed completely Goth. I'd just about be willing to bet her parents aren't Goth. For all we know the Muslim girl's parents aren't Muslim. Kids do a lot of things outside of what mom and dad want them to.

And Doug. The reason your unit respected local custom had a lot more to do with the military not wanting any trouble with the host country than with actually respecting the customs.

**wareagle69** · 08-30-2009, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by doug1980

But I don't feel in this case she was forcing anything. While I understand your statement, it is somewhat contradicting. You say we should not force beliefs on anyone but then you get upset when we voice our dislike of it. Freedom of speech so in this case they were both right and wrong. I think the main issue here is that most Americans have respect for ourselves and others. When I was deployed we could not do many things out of respect for the host country. And we respected that....didn't like it but respected it. So why should we not seek the same respect. It has nothing to do with freedom but respect.

But to each his own I guess.

ah true in a way, my contradicting statement comes in relation to the op saying love it or get out, that is more than voicing a dislike, that is an or else statement.as i said before it drives me crazy with the whole christmas thing about merry christmas and happy holidays thing, here in the americas its always been meery christmas and yes i dislike someone saying that they have come here and are offended by me saying that and that they do not beleive in christmas. i do not then respond,"well if you don't like it get out", i just simply say they is the great thing about our counrty so many diverse people and beleifs, if you want to celebrate your beleifs thats great, you work on christmas day at regular pay and on your special holiday i will work it for regular pay and we will both be happy

**Jonesy** · 08-30-2009, 10:54 PM

Poco,
Okay leave on the head cover. Stand and respect the flag. Respect the flag that gives you the freedom of religion. Will we accept Sharia law as an extension of freedom of religion too???

Rick,
Your right that was an unfair assumption of the parents.
Did a lot of stupid things as a kid. My parents were non existent but I do understand your argument.

I am frustrated with the country I see and the direction it is headed in my opinion. All of these types of stories represent the chipping away of what America was and could be. It feels like I am the immigrant in my own country and that I must accommodate the immigrants both legal and illegal in every way, politically, religion, financially, education, etc but they can say to he!! with me and what I believe because I was born here and that is acceptable.

**Rick** · 08-30-2009, 11:00 PM

But I've heard my father say exactly the same thing. Just not the same country anymore. I even heard my grandfather say it. I've heard it as far back as I can remember. Only then it was about those da**ed Commies or that junk that's being imported from Japan. At the church ice cream socials the ladies would talk about sinful things like mini skirts and bikinis. Some women were even burning their bras (GASP). And the pill. Land a goshin' don't get me started on that.

Today, it's just a different set of things to be ticked off about. Tomorrow it will be a different set for our kids.

**doug1980** · 08-30-2009, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

Jonesy, were you ever a 17 year old? Or a 20 year old for that matter? Always did what your parents taught. Never did ANYTHING stupid that would have reflected on them. Couldn't be a case of a kid just wanting to be different?

There's a really cute teenage girl that hoofs it around town. Dressed completely Goth. I'd just about be willing to bet her parents aren't Goth. For all we know the Muslim girl's parents aren't Muslim. Kids do a lot of things outside of what mom and dad want them to.

And Doug. The reason your unit respected local custom had a lot more to do with the military not wanting any trouble with the host country than with actually respecting the customs.

Not sure they were too worried about making trouble with this country. But I do see you point I guess.

**pocomoonskyeyes** · 08-31-2009, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesy

Poco,
Okay leave on the head cover. Stand and respect the flag. Respect the flag that gives you the freedom of religion. Will we accept Sharia law as an extension of freedom of religion too???

As long as it does not contradict OUR laws... Probably. I'm just guessing I know nothing about Sharia law.

You could probably use these same arguments with the Amish,Mennonites, Jewish communities as well, as they all have their own religious beliefs,with different concepts of intermingling of religion and a "hosting Government" of their current place of residence. there are members of the Jewish community (VERY FEW) that act as agents to Mossad the Israeli "CIA" because they are trying to keep the homeland of their religion safe. Should they be Deported? As long as they do not violate American Laws I would have to say NO!

As A former member of this countries Military, it is my belief that in this Country it doesn't matter to me what you say. It is my OBLIGATION to insure that our Nations laws and Constitution are followed by everyone. That all their freedoms and Liberties are Theirs to enjoy. If it means giving my life then that's what it requires. I would rather an Enemy give their life but if mine is the Sacrifice that has to be made then so be it. My Allegiance is not to Washington the Nations Capital OR the Idiots that run it. My Allegiance is to EVERY man woman and Child that claims this Nation as their home, and yes to an old piece of paper that sits in a museum.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death YOUR right to say it. I'll even add this...Even if I don't like it,will I do so.

Now please do NOT think that the words "you" and "your" in the paragraph above are directed at anyone in particular, but to EVERYONE equally and without prejudice. If I start saying this applies to Jonesy but not Rick,and I'm not sure about Crash Or Pal yet. Then that very instant I have become a hypocrite and am no longer worthy of my word. Now I have been as poor as Poor can get and at that time the ONLY thing I had of any Value was my word and my honor. With just those two things and some help from some people who cared, I was able to rebuild my life. I will not deny the same advantage and possibility to anyone who claims this Nation as their own, Even if they put it down. Now I know these concepts are hard for some people to understand, I know because at one point in my life they were hard for ME to understand. However in my own limited way I do now understand them. And I will stand by them even if I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like being disrespected.

It's kind of like being a cop on the line at a protest in the role of Crowd control. The people that I am there to protect just might be the ones spitting in my face. I don't have to like it I just have to do it. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword and it swings both ways. It is not my place to say which way it can swing or which edge should be sharpest,just that it has two edges and can swing both ways....nothing more,nothing less.

**Pict** · 08-31-2009, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jonesy

Poco,
Will we accept Sharia law as an extension of freedom of religion too???

Sharia law is a fusion of government and religion and would never fly here.

The US has always had this debate about cultural change brought about by immigration. The first generation of immigrants, raised in the old country will never learn the language or adapt to the culture fully. They bring along grandma and grandpa who won't learn a word of English. The kids are dual culture kids speaking their parents and grandparents language at home and being very "American" culturally when away from it. They go on to marry American kids and on the story goes.

I don't have any problem at all with English only mandates and feel it is a huge mistake to offer public school in Spanish. If you voluntarily move to a country you learn the language and adapt the culture, period. My grandmother spoke German at home with her sisters. My day did OK in German as an adult. I don't speak a word of it. Mac

**LudwigVan** · 08-31-2009, 02:34 AM

I love how people get so worked up about this kind of thing, as if the very fabric of the nation would rip apart over some girl wearing a moslem headscarf during the pledge of allegiance, of all things. Like Rick said, this was just a high school kid. Based on my experiences in ROTC I'm suprised it wasn't the ROTC girl being "un-patriotic". When I was in it you either became completely rebellious and monkey-wrenchy towards the whole thing, or you became a totally uptight brown noser, which is what this probably was. I sincerely doubt this girl sincerely had an issue with someone wearing a head covering during the pledge, she was probably just on a power trip and out to get someone, anyone. Again, speaking from recent experience here; when most high school ROTC kids get a menial task like "security" (meaning stand around looking mean and go run and get the SRO if anything goes awry) at sports games which involves just a smidgen of authority, watch the F**K out, you've just created a mini-SS. More often than not you'll end up with some incident like this one where they overstep their bounds and create a problem. This girl probably had instructions to just stand around and look sharp, doubtfull that her instructors gave her permission to order people around in any way, THAT'S probably why she got suspended.

Also, the pledge of allegiance is not sacred. Yeah, I beleive in being patriotic but you know there was a time when patriotism took more than taking your hat off and reciting some words, or waving around cheaply made american flags on certain holidays. Patriotism is supporting your country of your own free will, when you have no choice whether or not you are going to say the pledge or salute the flag it loses its meaning. Forced patriotism is tyranny.

**doug1980** · 08-31-2009, 02:42 AM

I have to say that I am very surprised at some of the responses on this matter, very surprised in fact. At least now I can see why the country is the way it is these days.

**canid** · 08-31-2009, 12:06 PM

i'm sure many of us on both sides of the fence feel that way. i have to say i agree.

**Jonesy** · 08-31-2009, 01:08 PM

We have a new debate team captain.

Originally Posted by wareagle69

ah america, land of the free and home of the ignorant, i love the whole if you were not born here then your what? not american, as if being born somewhere gives you more rights than the folks legally allowed to be there, whatever, freedom folks thats one one the reasons we are supposeldy fighting a these wars(hmm) maybe maybe not, i love the argument about being in anothers country and respecting their customs, a fact that is quite true, but why do you think people want to come to america, cuz its tha land of the free, you fn morons

Thanks! to everyone else for the discussion.