Fish Poisons

[Jay]

Hi, I hope this is not a taboo subject. If it is please disregard or delete it.

Do you have any natural fish poisons in the US? By natural I mean anything that grows in the forest that you can use to stun fish. We have several although it’s not wildly used now.( People prefer to chuck in a stick of dynamite nowadays). However it’s good to know some of this stuff…may come in useful in extreme situations. If anyone is interested I can post some Latin names so you can follow up and check if you have species of the same genus over there.

With apologies to anyone who may be offended by this method. Sometimes it can be the only way to get some protein.

[Rick]

Jay - I think just about every state has outlawed that. If someone wants to correct me, that's fine. It is something that has been practiced, especially by the indigenous peoples, until fairly recent times. I remember as a kid, black walnut husks would be tied in a burlap bag and tossed in the water. It didn't take long for the fish to float to the surface.

I cheated a bit and found a web site that lists a good number of methods in the U.S. I have highlighted in red the indigenous people that used a particular method.

Catawba, Cherokee, and Delaware / Black Walnut, (Juglans nigra) / Bark and green nut husk

Yuchi and Creek / Devil's Shoestring, (Symphoricarpos orbiculatus) / Roots

Horse Chestnut, (Aesculus hippocastanum L) / Fruit, twigs and buds

Cherokee / Polk Sallet, Polkweed, (Phytolacca americana) / Berries

Central and coastal California / Turkey-Mullein, (Eremocarpus setigerus) / Leaves

California Buckeye, (Aesculus California) / Nut or fruit

Soap plant, soap root, (Chlorogalum pomeridianum) / Bulb

Indian hemp, (Apocynum cannabinum) / Stalk, leaves

Pokeweed, Polk sallet, (Phytolacca americana) / Leaves

Indian Turnip, (Arisaema triphyllum) / Leaves

Wild cucumber, Manroot, ( Marah fabaceus) / Seeds

Here is a link to the site I used. It lists a lot of plants used world wide:

http://www.primitiveways.com/fish_poison.html

[Jay]

Thanks Rick,
Great info, I check out the site.
BTW although it has been outlawed would you consider using this method if you were in a really bad situation? Do you think many people would?

[Rick]

I sure would. I have no qualms at all about using whatever means I can to keep me or my family/friends alive anyway I can.

By way of clarification, when I say it is illegal. I simply mean it's not an acceptable form of fishing under normal circumstances. In a true survival situation, most laws don't govern.

I would think that those that know how to use it would. It's just one more skill that is slipping through our fingers.

[Stealth]

although it has been outlawed would you consider using this method if you were in a really bad situation? Do you think many people would?

definitely.

[Sarge47]

Poisons huh? Toxic waste seems to head the top of the list. Since we're "Post-911" the following methods are to be used only if you're truly in dire straights. Assuming you have access to explosives dynamite works really well. Here in the mid-West folks used to use the Carbide that miners used in their head lamps. Take a quart jar, put in some Carbide, poke some holes in the lid, then tighten it down. Tie one end of a rope to the jar the other end to a rock or other heavy weight heavy enough to pull the jar under water. As the jar is pulled under, the water comes in through the holes and mixes with the carbide forming a gas. As the gas expands to a certain point it explodes shocking &/or killing a certain amount of fish that then float to the surface for harvesting. I've even heard tell of some people using MRE heaters for the same thing, utillizing the chemical compound inside of them.

[trax]

Blasting fish leaves way more dead fish on the bottom than you see floating on top, and you usually get to see a lot floating on top. I come from a town where fishing was great and explosives were easily accessed. I didn't do it.

Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate if I had to do it. Jay asked about the legality of poisoning fish or other means of getting them. If it comes down to what I have to do to survive...legal doesn't mean squat to me. I think that there's way too much government and way too d**n many laws anyway. Edward Abbey...there we go again....said "the more corrupt a society, the more numerous it's laws" and I tend to agree with him. He may have gotten it from somewhere else but it was him that I read it from, anyway, check out your country's criminal code sometimes, pretty thick volumes.

[nell67]

But if you poison the fish,wouldn't that in turn poison you when you eat them?Just curious,I had not heard of poisoning them before.

[Rick]

Well now, there is a reasonable question. Thank you, dear Nell.

How the poison affects the fish depends on the type of poison used. There are several different types but they either enter the blood stream through the gills and place the fish into sort of a stupor allowing them to be captured or interfere with the fish's respiration. Unable to breath, they come to the surface where they can be captured. (No, I'm not that over-whelmingly intelligent. I had to look it up). Concentrations are usually very low to impact the fish and would require higher concentrations to affect humans.

I would not use a metal poison like cyanide. That would give you problems.

By the way, there is a section on fishing with poisons on this site.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/food-4.php

As for the blasting part. A game warden friend went fishing with me once and I pulled out a stick of dynamite and lit it.

"What are you doing?" he asked.

"Fishin'", I said.

"Using dynamite is illegal," he pointed out.

I handed the lit stick of dynamite to him. "You gonna talk or you gonna fish?"

Parump bump. Thank you folks. I do two shows a week.

[STB]

I was wondering the exact same thing nell. As well how many fish does it kill? Just an area in the water and if there fish in that area, who only those die? And what about the rest of the water, would it make the water bad for all the other fish and wildlife int here, and dirnking it still same? Never heard of this before, well heard of the dynamite but always found that a somewhat cheating way to get fish. Yes if NEED to i would but still weird and what the side affects are.
thanks

[Rick]

You want to use the poison in an area of either slow moving water or water that does not move. That way the concentrations are not diluted and you impact a larger number of fish. That is the goal. Do a Google search for "fish poisons" and a bunch of articles show up. Like any other pollutant, the old saying goes. The solution to pollution is dilution. The chemicals will soon disperse and loose their potency.

EDIT: I should also have added that specific poison types affect specific species of fish. According to the articles.

[nell67]

Either way,I think it would have to be a need to situation before I would go there.
I enjoy the sport in fishing as well as eating the fish,and I dont really see the sport in blasting or poisoning.
You would seriously have to be ready to put away anything that died,or was stunned by either method,because leaving any behind would be a waste of resources you may need later on.

[Rick]

As I said, to my knowledge, both methods are illegal to use everywhere. As Trax pointed out, it is really indiscriminate killing and you only capture those that come to the surface. But poisoning fish has been a wide spread practice world wide forever and a day. If I had just passed week 3 (3 weeks without food) I'd probably be ready to eat that elephant poo. Tossin' some walnut hulls in the water would be the least of my concerns.

[Aurelius95]

Anyone catch Mythbusters when they did the myth of "shooting fish in a barrel"? They found that it wasn't actually too hard to shoot a fish, but were more surprised by the g-force shock the fish felt when the bullet entered the water. Turns out they didn't even need to hit the fish, but the concussion was enough to kill it. They rigged a motor with a wire and inserted it into an already dead fish bought at the market. However, it was a realistic portrayal of a fish swimming in a barrel... my 2 cents.

[trax]

I've shot fish in a pond (also illegal btw) and sometimes it's friggin' hard. they wiggle around and the water deflects the bullets.....

[Jay]

Either way,I think it would have to be a need to situation before I would go there.
I enjoy the sport in fishing as well as eating the fish,and I dont really see the sport in blasting or poisoning.
You would seriously have to be ready to put away anything that died,or was stunned by either method,because leaving any behind would be a waste of resources you may need later on.

Just some clarification.
Nell, I work primarily in conservation so I don't condone blasting or poisoning fish or any other animal for that matter. However as Rick pointed out its been going on for a long time.

I also teach survival methods to various groups. I certainly don't teach this to civilians, but I do to others...if you get my drift. They sometimes need it badly. I cant go into detail but a couple of years ago, a "survivor" from a bad situation (Chris Rayan type) traveled for 3 weeks to get back to his lines. the only type of food he had in all that time was 2 small yams and 3 coconuts. Yet he was travelling through jungle. Plenty of streams, ponds,rivers etc. If he had possesed this type of knowledge he'd have fared much better.

I dont view it as a sport, but I'd do it, if all other means had failed.
most of the plants we use bind up the oxigen in the water making it difficult for the fish to breathe, causing them to come to the surface where they are easily collected.
rgds
jay

[Gray Wolf]

Jay,

Check out this page - Mainstay Emergency Rations, Shelf life is 5 years, they are part of my survival kit, in case all else fails. They have a nice lemon flavor, they're the best Emg Rations I have tasted, they're bars.

http://www.bestglide.com/Mainstay_Em...y_Rations.html

[Jay]

Jay,

Check out this page - Mainstay Emergency Rations, Shelf life is 5 years, they are part of my survival kit, in case all else fails. They have a nice lemon flavor, they're the best Emg Rations I have tasted, they're bars.

http://www.bestglide.com/Mainstay_Em...y_Rations.html

Thanks Grey Wolf,
I just had a look at it. sounds good. I dont think its available in this part of the world though. once on a survival ex I got the oppotunity to try one (MRE)that had specifically been imported from Malaysia for testing. I was not too impressed.
At aproximately seven hundred rupees it is a little expensive. When customs duties, taxes etc are added it could be as much as Rs 1000. Howver the long shelf life may make it worthwhile.
thanks for the info.

[Gray Wolf]

Thanks Grey Wolf,
I just had a look at it. sounds good. I dont think its available in this part of the world though. once on a survival ex I got the oppotunity to try one (MRE)that had specifically been imported from Malaysia for testing. I was not too impressed.
At aproximately seven hundred rupees it is a little expensive. When customs duties, taxes etc are added it could be as much as Rs 1000. Howver the long shelf life may make it worthwhile.
thanks for the info.

I tried quite a few different kinds and brands of MRE's. I didn't care for them either. Plus, they don't give you the vit's and callories you realy need to trek on to hunt, fish or build a shelter etc, like these Mainstay Emergency Ration Bars.
Where you are, how does a gift work as far as customs duties and taxes?

[Jay]

I tried quite a few different kinds and brands of MRE's. I didn't care for them either. Plus, they don't give you the vit's and callories you realy need to trek on to hunt, fish or build a shelter etc, like these Mainstay Emergency Ration Bars.
Where you are, how does a gift work as far as customs duties and taxes?

Grey Wolf,
Customs is a law unto it self!! Duties are very high, for gifts and every thing else. most of the time anything thats new to them is conficated. I had dealing with them in the past as for ten years I worked for two courier companies. one has it origins in your part of the world...United Parcel Service (UPS)
But thanks anyway.