Misguided Liberal Crap

[Ken]

There have been a few posts in various threads lately that suggest that America is wrong in the way that we view and treat terrorists, such as the Guantanamo prisoners, and because of our outrage over the release of Abdel Basset Ali Megrahi.

Bullsh!t. I am so sick of hearing that misguided liberal crap!

As a nation, we are far too restrained in our efforts. We worry about "civil rights" and "international law" and "international opinion" and what the CIA and Blackwater have done and about not "humiliating" the sensitive feelings of these murdering bastards.

Here's the bottom line:

1. You are either a criminal terrorist or you are not. If you in any way support or aid a terrorist, that makes you one yourself.

2. The same principle applies to nations that support or harbor terrorists.

If you are a terrorist or support or aid a terrorist, and one single American is killed or wounded because of your actions, you are our enemy, and we should proclaim our absolute right to hunt you down and kill you or destroy you and then follow through with all of our power. Collateral civilian deaths are your fault, not ours.

If terrorists are operating within your borders and you make no effort to capture them or if your efforts are not successful, then we should proclaim our right to kill these anumals within your borders by whatever means we see fit.

Let me explain how it is in terms even a liberal can understand.

If your son Johnny is shooting his .22 at my kids from your window, you damn well better stop him before I blow his head off. If he hurts one of my kids and you helped him load the gun or you try to protect him after the fact, I'll kill both of you. No, I'm not gonna' wait for the police and give Johnny the chance to take a few more shots. Get it?

We don't have a police department to call when it comes to terrorists. And if you screw with my "family", I don't give a sh!t what anyone else, or any other nation, thinks about what I'm going to do in response.

And by the way - if I see Johnny aiming his gun at my family, I'll take him out BEFORE he gets his first shot off. Don't get in my way.

[doug1980]

Well Ken, tell us what you really think. I agree though.

[rebel]

O.K.

I'm going one step further in my Machiavellian thinking and say: If you hurt one of mine, I will hurt 10 of yours. That's what has won wars. When the gen pop cries, then it stops.

[tonester]

ken i agree 100%

[canid]

i would call your attitude extremist. in my eyes, those are terrorist ideologies.

if i met you and you shot off at the mouth like that, even while agreeing in the greater part with you, i'd probably consider you an enemy.

[canid]

let me point out the other side of the coin. if a child, or an ignorant person does something wreckless, dangerous, even violent there is a recourse. it may be to kill him before he does any harm, but it will probably be something more reasonable.

if i where that father, and a child of mine was doing wrong, there's an opportunity somewhere to set things right as best they may be.

even if my child where wrong and you threatened their life, i'd take any action available to stop you. it might not require killing you, but if i did, i'd shed not a tear over your corpse.

[Ken]

i'd take any action available to stop you. it might not require killing you, but if i did, i'd shed not a tear over your corpse.

Exactly.
.

[canid]

no, not exactly. only similar. from your position, i'd be the terrorist, except that i know my actions would be moderated by the situation, and not driven from some notion of total retaliation.

[HOSSFLY]

Some people live by the Law of the Jungle. Some people live by the Law of the Land. I live by the Old Testament EYE FOR A EYE .

[canid]

eye for an eye is about the obligation and moderation of retribution/punishment, not the advocacy of retaliation. how is that relevant?

[Rick]

I'm really torn on this subject. I was raised to believe that America stands for something noble. Something above and beyond the cruelty and inhuman actions of other countries/people. As an American, I resent concepts like torture or "eye for an eye" or retribution. And yet, I'm not naive enough that I know brave men and women having been doing that behind the scenes, to protect this country, probably since it's founding.

Still, I wonder what our position would be if all that retribution occurred here, at home. What would we think if a cruise missile landed in Springfield, Missouri because some country believed we harbored "terrorists"? How would the victim's families view that country? And yet, we think it perfectly okay to sprinkle them around other countries. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Now, don't get me wrong. I also think we should squash them like a grape. As I said, I'm really torn on this subject.

During the initial invasion of Europe, Gen. Patton handed down orders to not take prisoners. That's documented and I can offer references if anyone wants. His reasoning was he did not have time or resources to deal with the logistical nightmare of handling prisoners. His high command finally convinced him to relent siting the very real facts that no one would surrender if the KNEW they were going to die anyway and the enemy would begin treating prisoners in the same fashion.

So what does that have to do with this? If we walk onto foreign soil or strike without warning based on our ideologies then we should be prepared to accept the same in return. And where does that end? We've migrated, somehow, from performing surgery with a very sharp scalpel to doing so with a bulldozer. And the world's opinion of us is so reflected.

We have voluntarily placed ourselves in the position of "world cop". First, I don't think we have the right to do that. Second, if we intend to maintain that title then we HAVE to expect to spend enormous resources, both in terms of finance and lives. Third, we have to be willing to make sacrifices at home to perpetuate that role. Again, both in finances and lives. Fourth, we have to be willing to shift our ideologies away from Christian tenants (no discussion of religion intended here. But that is what this country is based on ) to something else. Fifth, we have to be willing to subjugate the citizens of this country and provide ever more power to the federal government. Think of government operations in WWII. Sixth, as we exercise more and more power over other people they become more and more defiant against our "authority". And finally, militaristic governments have always fallen away because of internal disenchantment and constant external pressures. I don't think we want to walk that same path.

I don't have the answers to this "new warfare" and, to some extent, we are developing an answer as we go I think. We've never experienced guerrilla warfare on this scale before. Yet, history shows time and time again the guerrillas almost always win. That part is scary to me.

I think it's time we take a moment and reevaluate who were are as individuals and as a nation. IMHO, if we continue to move in the direction we are headed I can only envision an ever increasing escalation as more and more people want to retaliate against us for what we have done to them.

I fully expect many, perhaps most, of you to disagree with me. That's okay. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm only expressing my opinion on this very controversial subject.

[red lake]

Rick you are expressing well what I tried to in another thread.

[Rick]

I do get what you're saying, RL. I also fully understand why the rest feel the way they do. But we have to step back a moment and remember that we view others from a very selfish set of eyes. It doesn't matter where you live in the world and it doesn't matter if you are viewing your neighbor or another country. You still view with selfish eyes. We just have to remember that not everyone in this world believes the same as us and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or us wrong, for that matter.

[SARKY]

Having been to more countries than I can count, most of them turd world ****holes, I have a thing or two to say.
1: In general, all people have the same needs and wants
2: There are 3 things in this world that seperate us Politics, Religion, and Sports
3: The people in these terrorist nations have been taught from a very early age that we, The USA, are evil incarnate and must be destroyed at all cost. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be changed, they must be destroyed down to the last man, woman and child.
4: We are NOT a perfect society, BUT we at least are striving towards that goal!
5: Our problems from within, started in the 60's with the free speech movement, These same people that were screaming "Question Authority" are now the professors at the univerities. And because they are in power, they don't want their authority questioned, especially as they ram their indocrination down the throats of our young people.
"Great nations are destroyed from within before they are destroyed from with out"
6: It seems that great pain is the only motivator for the masses, and that includes this great nation!
7: I think that the Neutron bomb is a good thing, It allows for the destruction of the virus within the society but still leaves the foundations intact to be repopulated by reasonable peoples.
Lastly: I was going to to a new thread on this documentry but it kind of fits in here. The documentry is "Indoctrinate U" It delves into the indoctrination of our youth by the Universities. It is very well done and quite informative.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Rick as I said in the "Lockerbie" thread I'm with you on this 100% and since these two are so closely tied maybe they should be merged. It is getting time consuming for me to bounce from one to the other and say the same thing in both threads. Sorry folks If I offend you. But unless you have travelled abroad and heard first hand what other Nations think about this country(I have) you really need to stop and think how you would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. MOST other countries citizens Consider America and its citizens as Arrogant A$$holes, and justifiably so, we Are a much Younger Nation yet we try to impose our beliefs on other nations and their citizens. How would you feel if Spain,France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, N. Korea or any other Nation started telling us what we SHOULD do? You would go tell them to go pee in the wind.(trying to be nice) That's the way they feel.
I still say let me go Terrorize this one individual, let him see how it feels. I can promise I would not be treated nearly as nicely as he was but hey thats just me ..still I would go. An Eye for an Eye, and he has two rght? He won't when I get through with him.

[SARKY]

Poco,
The problem with your argument is 2 fold.
1: We are based on one of the oldest civilizations on the world, Greece
2: If we are so horrible why do so many people from all over the world want IN!
3: It really is more a matter of playing nice with each other, and we do have the moral high ground...we aren't perfect, come to think of it, if we were perfect they would hate us more. If they don't want to play nice, we should what???!!
4: you want arrogant a**holes, go to Paris, France
5: a little world history Mexico has never been our friend, in fact they were courting Hitler in order to open up a front on our southern border. France has never been our friend, they came to our aid during the revolutionary war because we were a thorn in the UK's side and they were at war with Britain. Turkey, Murdered unknown numbers of Armenians and Hitler was so impressed that he spoke of it in one of his speeches. In most of the arab world women are chattel, would you want that for your daughter? how many of the women on this forum would go for that??? As to north korea, ole' kim jomg il would rather see every civilian die of starvation just so long as his military is well fed. Do you really believe he wants to play nice with the rest of the world?
KEN......Is it time to get the pitchforks and torches now??????

[Rick]

Sarky - I get what you're saying, too, and I agree...with some of it.

I've taught at the university level. I was even head of the academic committee for a while. It was the committee's job to determine teaching protocols as well as determine which printed material would be used. I can assure you that neither protection of authority nor offering up some form of indoctrination was on the list. And having dealt with other institutions and professors from other institutions I'm not aware of anyone that would apply to. That's just my personal experience. I'm sure your scenario is apt to apply to some instructors and, perhaps to some universities, but I don't believe it true across the board. Most folks are just folks trying to do their job the best they can and are usually genuinely concerned about their students. We had another thread on that not too long ago and I think that sentiment was born out there very well. No different than LEO or any other profession. A lot of really good, dedicated folks and a few bad apples.

I don't think it's accurate to label with a broad blanket. I certainly do agree that many countries and/or religions DO teach about the US being evil and those students will probably never be convinced otherwise. After all, the Japanese perfected that approach prior to WWII and it was clearly proved to be successful in a strangely morbid way. At the same time, there are those folks that did not attend that indoctrination, did not accept it and/or do not view us in the same fashion. Just as all of us aren't evil here in the States. And wiping them out to the last man, woman and child is part of doing surgery with a bulldozer I alluded to.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Sarky you are forgetting that in The "Age of cultures" even Greece is still fairly Young. China, Mesopoatmia,Sanskrit and Egypt are just some that come to mind. 2 don't need any other explanation but 2 do geographically. Sanskrit= India Mesopotamia = the region around and including Turkey. You are right I don't necessarily agree with what those countries laws and customs are If I did I would move. Guess where I still live? that's right the good ol' USA! All I am saying, is that those other places view us an a young pup in the grander scheme of things. How do you feel when a Numpty tells you you should do this or that? These other Nations feel like that. You would not stand for what any of those Nations would tell Us to do, and that Was my point ENTIRELY!! Thank you for adding even more strength to what I had already said. You totally misunderstood my meaning, my fault I obviously did not clearly communicate or convey my feelings. Also read my reply in the lockerbie thread and you will see why I said the two should be "merged". It's easy to misunderstand when I'm trying to say the same thing in two places.

[Ken]

KEN......Is it time to get the pitchforks and torches now??????

I'll bring the torch oil.

[SARKY]

I'll bring the torch oil.

'Bout time!

Poco, pertaining to Greece I should have said as far as democracies go.
But even with that being said, The USA when it was formed, the founding fathers used the lessons of history to create it. And how many of those older countries have had their cultures and politics change over the centuries? Many of them are the same country in name only.