Your Most Critical Survival Resource

**Rick** · 06-27-2009, 06:53 AM

WE - You are equating boot time with the ability to use natural items to accomplish what Mac has outlined. For some that may be true. For a bunch of us it is not. I choose NOT to do it that way. It has nothing to do with how much time I spend in the woods. I just don't want to filter my water with a leaf. I'll do it using my MSR, boil it or drop in some pills. Why? Because I want to, it's easier, it's quicker and it leaves me time to do other things like enjoy where I am. If those are skills you choose to work on and enjoy doing then more power to you.

The other piece of the pie is I can't rub two sticks together and make fire. I've tried...a lot...and I just don't seem to be able to do it. I've never understood how you can go to the field and make a fire kit and make it work. I can't do it so I quit trying. Some folks bring their friction kit with them and I don't understand that either. If you're bring a kit with you why not just bring a lighter, a fire steel and matches? Fire is too important to monkey around with it.

**Pict** · 06-27-2009, 09:04 AM

Guys,

There's no need to make this into a competition. I am attempting to make a clear distinction between wilderness survival and bushcraft.

Everyone who enters a wilderness area is practicing wilderness survival and bushcraft

On one end you have the guy in the Winnebago searching for a flat spot and the other end the guy in a loin cloth searching for flint. I'm not setting up a scale by which we judge people I'm trying to shed light on what it takes to apply bushcraft methods to wilderness survival situations.

Wilderness survival is something you DON'T EVER INTEND TO ACTUALLY DO and can prepare well in advance to deal with.

Bushcraft is something you FULLY INTEND TO ACTUALLY DO and head off to the bush all the time to do it. Lots of folks, self included, practice bushcraft at or near home which is a great way to learn but could possibly result in a catastrophic FAIL in an actual wilderness survival situation, not for lack of skill but a lack of time. Mac

**Ole WV Coot** · 06-27-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by wareagle69

well if ya'll can read the op wanted to know what natural methods you would use, if you are too old or have no bush time then read another thread same as always if ya don't like whats being posted here then read something else. simple details of natural methods is what the question was asked and apparently very few here can answer that, which is why i suggest either post about what you know or get out in the feild and learn
simple no?

Not that simple. You're already in the bush and I kinda live in the boonies. A lot of folks don't care to leap from a cliff to see if they will bounce or go splat. I have enough time and believe it or not I can read. I am sorry I don't wish to swing from a vine in a loincloth anymore, my choice. Most folks here really don't have anything to prove and like me aren't easily impressed. I learned one can either work smart or work hard and it's our choice. I will avoid answering any post you make because I simply don't wish to regress. I know my abilities or lack thereof and by experience I know I can survive. I am sorry if us Hillbillies aren't primitive enough. My last on this subject.

**oly** · 06-27-2009, 11:29 AM

I would like to apologize to you Mac.

With the snow just receded and still rain and snow mixed saturated the tinder it took about 2.5 to 3 hours to build a fire.
with dry conditions about 1hr
The currant conditions and the standards a person has may take more or less time to complete

My standard for a fire may differ from others, my standard is a fire is not a fire until there are enough hot coals there so that if you walk away for a minute and the flame goes out it can restart itself by putting more tinder on it.

Never timed myself and maybe I will someday.

**Pict** · 06-27-2009, 12:21 PM

No apology needed.

I often get to where I'm going to be practicing wilderness survival later than I intended and while I'm not lost and not injured I am often struck by the pace I have to work at to get into a stable situation before the lights go out. That is using basic minimum kit like in the photo I posted. Using pure bushcraft techniques, as in knife only, that time factor goes way up.

Lost in the woods I think I could manage to bushcraft my way out of any one of the big three (shelter-fire-water) on day one. Attempting to conjure up all three and get into a shelter, in front of a fire, and have clean water with pure bushcraft techniques would be beyond me unless I was in a very favorable place and conditions were right.

I don't see any of this stuff as proving I'm a man or anything. Most of us have been through much harder tests in life than anything we choose to do in the wilderness. Mac

**erunkiswldrnssurvival** · 06-27-2009, 12:49 PM

some times that pace is almost too much. i can remember being so exausted from the efforts that i almost couldnt move. determination kicks in though and a person manages to get through it.
traveling in steep or rough rocky terrain can take your strength leaving you tired and needing to get more done

**Pict** · 06-27-2009, 06:00 PM

Remy,

I think we're talking past each other here. That photo I posted of the kit is exactly what it takes in Central Brazil to have your most basic wilderness problems solved with a minimum of time and maximum savings of energy. If those items are not carried then I would have to resort to bushcraft methods to perform those functions. My point being that there is not enough time to do that between realizing you have to spend an unplanned night in the bush and making it happen. I practice primitive skills because I find them interesting. I practice wilderness survival because it could save my life, and I find it interesting. I think it is important to know the difference between the two disciplines and keep survival preparations in focus when going into a wilderness area.

Bushcraft and primitive skills are great things to know and learn but they do not take the place of wilderness survival preparations. Relying solely on primitive skills for wilderness survival is very unwise. It presupposes that you are in good enough health to perform the steps required and all of them are highly dependent upon the resources in the area.

Why would you rely on primitive bushcraft skills? You might wind up in a situation that you have no choice. I don't carry my minimum kit everywhere I go. I think it is valuable for people to have a solid understanding of how much time and energy gets expended in performing those tasks. It factors into deciding what is necessary and what can safely be left out of a pack. It also factors into what you should do next in bad circumstances. Mac

**mountain mama** · 06-27-2009, 06:24 PM

Isn't this why many of us carry a small survival kit for everyday, have a BOB ready if we have time to grab it, and then a BOV beyond that? If I had to just take one item, it would be the one I have with me at all times - my suvival tin.

I can make a shelter with what I have in my tin in about an hour, give or take.

I can make a fire with what I have in my tin in usually less than 10 minutes, depending on conditions.

I can gather water with what I have in my tin in the amount of time it takes me to find the water and then purify it (30 minutes).

As long as my survival tin stays with me, my chances of survival are increased.

**Ken** · 06-27-2009, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

The other piece of the pie is I can't rub two sticks together and make fire. I've tried...a lot...and I just don't seem to be able to do it.

Don't be sad, Rick!

You can always play with your BAN BUTTON, right?

Originally Posted by Rick

I've never understood how you can go to the field and make a fire kit and make it work.

But you're STILL Minister of Science!

**Tundrascout** · 06-27-2009, 07:16 PM

Interesting thread, first I'll qualify that I am a newbie here with no credibility, so yeah, I'm more blah blah, but I think what I'm taking away from this thread is that there is a time for bushcraft and a time for wilderness survival skills and a time for both. In a time of actual emergency, you will probably need both, it all depends on what resources you have (time, material, skill and knowledge). All factor into your "Survivability" level.

If I'm in a plane that crashes in Alaska, I can not control the material I'll have unless I pack something in the suitcase, (Provided it makes the plane, etc). I cant control the time of day the plane goes down, so it would be good to know how long it would take to make a shelter or a fire to give me a better idea which one I would be most likely able to complete should there not be enough daylight for both. The skill and knowledge part is why I joined this site. Information here is all going into my head, but I still need to practice the knowledge to have the skill.

Thanks for the thread and posts folks!

**Ken** · 06-27-2009, 07:21 PM

Alaskan Survival Equipment RequirementsGuests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.

We called and talked to the FAA in Alaska and to the Alaska DOT's Aviation Staff about the following statute. We had a few questions such as how much food do they think a person needs to survive for a week in light of the numerous medical studies that have shown we can go for much longer than a week with out eating. No one had an answer. That being said, any prudent pilot carries a substantial survival kit when flying in the remote parts of Alaska. In addition to a Prepared Pilot Survival Kit, we recommend bringing a hatchet which is also useful for pounding in tie down stakes, a sleeping bag, extra food and water when ever you fly to remote airstrips. In our opinion the signaling equipment in the Wilderness Aviator Survival Kit is better than the example items listed in the statute because they have a much longer duration.

Firearms have not been required since Sept. 27, 2001.

ALASKA STATUTES Sec. 02.35.110. Emergency rations and equipment.
An airman may not make a flight inside the state with an aircraft unless emergency equipment is carried as follows:

(1) the following minimum equipment must be carried during the summer months:

(A) rations for each occupant sufficient to sustain life for one week;
(B) one axe or hatchet;
(C) one first aid kit;
(D) an assortment of tackle such as hooks, flies, lines, and sinkers;
(E) one knife;
(F) fire starter;
(G) one mosquito headnet for each occupant;
(H) two small signaling devices such as colored smoke bombs, railroad fuses, or Very pistol shells, in sealed metal containers;

(2) in addition to the equipment required under (1) of this subsection, the following must be carried as minimum equipment from October 15 to April 1 of each year:

(A) one pair of snowshoes;
(B) one sleeping bag;
(C) one wool blanket or equivalent for each occupant over four.

(b) However, operators of multi-engine aircraft licensed to carry more than 15 passengers need carry only the food, mosquito nets, and signalling equipment at all times other than the period from October 15 to April 1 of each year, when two sleeping bags, and one blanket for every two passengers shall also be carried.

All of the above requirements as to emergency rations and equipment are considered to be minimum requirements which are to remain in full force and effect, except as further safety measures may be from time to time imposed by the department.

SOURCE: http://www.preparedpilot.com/info_pages.php?pages_id=7

**wareagle69** · 06-28-2009, 09:07 AM

well volwest i started to disagree with you last post but then continued reading it, which i rarely do with your musings, but in the end i liked what you have to say this time.
my problem with this thread is still with some of the folks here posting only generic answers, start fire, build shelter ,drink water, i have spent vast amounts of time latley looking at 3 day survival treks both volunatary and involuntary, most here would think that 3 days in the bush is easy, and if you do i challenge any of you to come up here to our neck of the woods and let me or my mentors put you thru the ropes, yes you may be old or smart or what have you but from what i have seen from this site i can think of only 5 folks here that would survive 3 days the rest would fail badly, now that will spark a storm of self rightousness but i defy any of you to go 3 days in the bush. in the scenarios that i will put you thru. any of you can pm if you like and we can go thru a 3 day routine, but i still see no real experience here only the generic answers that most would give but no true details
actually volwest on this thread other than mac you are really the only one who gave any credible info, still don't care much for you or your musings but there are times when i do find you credible, as for the rest of you who do not beleive all i can say is, look long and hard at yourselves, quit lying to your selves get out of your comfort zones and some real skills

**oly** · 06-28-2009, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Rick

The other piece of the pie is I can't rub two sticks together and make fire. I've tried

At least you tried Rick, I never had because I agree with you on packing it around when a lighter, fire steal, magnifying glass, and water proof matches takes up less space and takes alot less energy.

I'll have to give it a try someday and use the natural wood in the mountains and time myself.

**Oscar** · 06-28-2009, 10:02 PM

Man am I a dork, I can and have used magnesium stick and natural tinder to start fires but today I began buliding a bow and parts for friction. It took me forever to do this and I stopped to do other family stuff. I can see time is really the killer, literally. I have never made a fire this way but will teach myself and appreciate the magnesium stick/ Vaseline on a cotton ball stuff too. WE are so weak. It's high time we reteach ourselves and get strong.

**Oscar** · 06-28-2009, 10:08 PM

I just began lurking here this month. Just posted my first two or three questions and resectful comments. I can tell you I definately would not make it three days. I am weak but want to learn and survive. We live near a launch site for nuclear war heads. Will all my prep be in vane? I would like to know what my chances are 60 miles from a ground Zero?

**crashdive123** · 06-28-2009, 10:14 PM

Oscar - the launch sites are not ground zero. The population centers are.

**Tundrascout** · 06-29-2009, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Oscar

I would like to know what my chances are...

If your talking full Russian return, zilch, even in the Dakotas where people drive 50 miles to thier neighbor's house. I read somewhere that a Hiroshima sized bomb will kill everything flat out within 10 miles, but some H bombs were 100 times stronger. Needless to say, I'm not at ALL concerned with a full strike as I probably wouldnt want to survive. I'd be more concerned about a smaller terrorist type action, but I doubt Minot is even on that radar.

**Oasis de Tucanes** · 08-23-2009, 06:48 PM

Down here the law requires that you carry darn near a BOB in your car. Jack. Flares or lights, first aid kit, water. Once you have that in the car just a few more items and you got it. Fire, water purification tabs, salsa can stove, cup, 8 oz bottle of alcohol, 5/7 tarp, bug spray, rain gear. Done.
In Latin America you don't leave anything in the car so I am never without my bag, which contains a whole lot more than I listed. 20 or 22 lbs worth of crap...LOL
In this climate I could handle 3 or 4 days minimum on a 3 second notice just with the crap I carry. Plenty of food and good water in the woods. No problem there.