What will you do?

**Alpine_Sapper** · 04-08-2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by grundle

You misunderstand Alpine Sapper. The infrastructure from the Driver's License is only one aspect of a person's life. You still have to consolidate their salary, their assets including credit holdings (such as mortgage and car loans etc.) All of that must be connected with a banking institution(s). Don't forget any stock holdings, mutual funds, retirement benefits, any and all insurances held by that person.

All of those things which involve multiple companies would have to be consolidated and organized. That entails writing up a standardization document and then submitting it to those organizations so that they can update their systems to comply with the new standard.

The most recent event that followed a similar vein, but not quite as extensive, that I can think of would be Sarbanes Oxley compliance.

As for the third world countries, they would have a huge burden to establish an adequate technological infrastructure before being able to cooperate. Not an easy task for many of them, who are more focused on infighting and local politics than engaging in the world economy.

This is definitely an interesting discussion. There are many sides that deserve to be explored, but I do think that what I outlined as the end-result is ineviteable

The two main primary functions are licensing and healthcare. If they can roll your drivers license into an all encompassing license, so once they run your number they can verify your ability to drive a car, own a gun, own a dog, or anything else that requires a registration/background check, then it makes it easy. Then they tie your NCIS information to it, and ensure all local law enforcement has entered the digital age and is sharing information. That piece of it is right around the corner no matter what. As well as integrating your healthcare information with it. Now, anyone with common sense can see that that is oh, a 5 year plan if fasttracked. While that is going on, they implement theonline healthcare, which was part of the stimulus package. If you don't believe me, go look up the details of Obama's package and see for yourself. So by the end of those five years they will have almost everything but your NCIS information and your financial information tied to it. If during those five years they ensure that they have one centralized application that can reference the databases those systems are currently using, they can then simply roll everyone out to an interface for that application for their department such as the DMV or the Police, and they have access to their little piece of the pie with all the systems being integrated. I'm not saying it's a global conspiracy, but you said it yourself when referencing Sarbaines Oxley. Essentially, ok, policy has changed, now you must comply with x regulations by x year or you can't function as a business anymore. They did it to the auto industry repeatedly with the California Emissions Regulations and that's just one example. Previously I mentioned the drinking age. There are tons more examples where our government has done EXACTLY that. The NCIS system itself is an example of what I'm talking about. A bunch of individual little pieces, each with their own jurisdiction, all lumped into one information sharing system. They didn't roll it out overnight. The bigger cites implement it first and then it has a trickle down effect until it has completely saturated it's target market.

As for the 3rd world countries, what I'm saying is that if they implement this within the united states, and during that time they try to "globalize" the system, let's just say Obama get's elected to a second term, and during this term our relationship with France and Germany get's even stronger. At that point, how hard would it be to convince the EU to adopt that system and move forward? Ok, so anyone not in NATO, (Iraq, North Korea, et all) has to either get on board, or can't travel to those countries. Just like with the electronic passports. The states that refused to adopt it will not be provided federally regulated travel services (airplanes) to their citizens after 2011 or whatever. In other words, do it or we make it SO inconvienant you can't do it any other way. But you don't HAVE to do it...) So if you are in a third world country, you cannot leave without getting integrated into the system. If you want to leave ethiopia and get to the US, or Brittain, or anywhere else, "I'm sorry sir, but we cannot approve your Visa until you have completed the Globalized ID process and have been issued a proper ID. Please fill out these forms declaring your PHP, bank account information, criminal background, etc. etc. The background check will be completed and your passport + new ID will be mailed to you within 10 weeks."

Anyone who's ever applied for a passport should notice only nominal changes from the current process, even if you are a GI overseas.

So no, I didn't mis-undertand, I just pushed FF for about 15 years, once the drivers license has been in place for 12 years or so, and they've had time to work out the kinks in the consolidated all in one system and it has started the push into globalization via the first world countries. Once everyone has embraced the technology, THEN they make it mandatory. Kinda like a drug dealer giving your first 2-3 packs for free, then once your hooked and have no choice putting price tag on it.

My point was in agreement with yours. THey'll make it voluntary until they KNOW it works, and have seen it in motion, and had time to perform the AAR's, and revamp as necessary. Once that is done then they FORCE it, and if you are from a poor country and haven't been integrated yet, just wait your turn and we'll get to you. In the meantime, if you have need of it, we'll get you onlined without to much of hassle.

**grundle** · 04-08-2009, 03:35 PM

Alpine Sapper that was great. Your extrapolation on the subject was well put. I am in agreement with your viewpoint.

When you mentioned the "drivers license" I guess it was an oversimplification, but now I get what you were saying. We basically said the same thing.

**Rick** · 04-08-2009, 03:38 PM

The only thing that MIGHT stand in the way of that is State Sovereignty. The states could say, No, we aren't going to pay for that. If you want it, Mr. Fed, then you get to pay for it OR not within our border. Since driver's licenses are state directives it could slow things down.

Otherwise, I think the scenario is not only feasible but probable.

**Alpine_Sapper** · 04-08-2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by grundle

Alpine Sapper that was great. Your extrapolation on the subject was well put. I am in agreement with your viewpoint.

When you mentioned the "drivers license" I guess it was an oversimplification, but now I get what you were saying. We basically said the same thing.

*takes a bow
Thank you. In case you can't tell, I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion.

I figured some might have missed the previous novella I wrote in agreement with Rick's point that it won't be an implanted chip, but something like your cellphone. I just ID'ed the methodology that they are most likely going to push forward with IMHO. Not saying it won't turn into an implant eventually, but for that to occur they'll have to crush the spirit of society a little further. There are still to many of us that are armed and against the branded cattle lifestyle this could lead to. Now, another 20 years of stripping liberty from you while making you like it? Society may be subdued enough to stand in the stall and take the brand.

**RBB** · 04-08-2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper

Then they tie your NCIS information to it, and ensure all local law enforcement has entered the digital age and is sharing information. That piece of it is right around the corner no matter what.

A couple of thoughts on Law enforcement:

Within my life time: Officers I worked with when I first started would drive around town. When they saw the "blue light" go on over city hall, they would find a phone and call the telephone operator to find out what the call was.

Later, after car radios became more common (took up the entire trunk of the car), officers would run a license plate or drivers license information by radioing dispatch. The dispatcher would phone down to the state capital where someone would manually look through the folders until the information was retrieved and it would be phoned back to the dispatcher who would radio it to the squad. A half hour was a pretty smoking good time.

Today, I have a computer in my squad. I have access to all the state information at my finger tips. I can look up any state DL or vehicle information. To look up criminal history through NCIS - I have to have a case file number (which are audited periodically - thank God). However, we are now on a reporting system that includes five counties. This will show any contacts that anyone in the five counties has had with law enforcement, not just convictions, but anything. I certainly don't see this shrinking. It makes it easier to do my job, but on another level - it concerns me.

**Alpine_Sapper** · 04-08-2009, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by RBB

A couple of thoughts on Law enforcement:

Within my life time: Officers I worked with when I first started would drive around town. When they saw the "blue light" go on over city hall, they would find a phone and call the telephone operator to find out what the call was.

Later, after car radios became more common (took up the entire trunk of the car), officers would run a license plate or drivers license information by radioing dispatch. The dispatcher would phone down to the state capital where someone would manually look through the folders until the information was retrieved and it would be phoned back to the dispatcher who would radio it to the squad. A half hour was a pretty smoking good time.

Today, I have a computer in my squad. I have access to all the state information at my finger tips. I can look up any state DL or vehicle information. To look up criminal history through NCIS - I have to have a case file number (which are audited periodically - thank God). However, we are now on a reporting system that includes five counties. This will show any contacts that anyone in the five counties has had with law enforcement, not just convictions, but anything. I certainly don't see this shrinking. It makes it easier to do my job, but on another level - it concerns me.

So in your opinion, how long before you have all the counties in your state at your accessbility, or is that a jurisdictional thing? I know certain warrants become "Regional" warrants, so, say, South Texas it won't show up unless you get pulled over by a state trooper, but if set foot in the next county or a few over, once you are in their "Region" the warrant will show.

When I referenced NCIS it was mainly more of invoking an already existing CI database. I honestly think they will just online a couple of server clusters that consolidate all the state information you were talking about, and then expand it from there to include any contact, as you describe. The individual technology that they choose to incorporate into the system isn't as relevant as how easy it would be to piece meal that together until you have working coherent system, and that it could feasibly be done over the next decade imho.

**grundle** · 04-09-2009, 11:28 AM

Speaking of law enforcement it would be a "brilliant" victory for investigation if we consider the case where people have already been implanted with this device that has some sort of locator or GPS capability.

Imagine, then a murder occurs. To generate a list of suspects you would estimate the time of death and the make a list of all personal ID numbers who were in that general area when the crime occurred. From that list you could probably find the criminal much quicker than our current response time. Especially since you can just drive right to them, using the same location technology.

It would be heralded as the next great breakthrough in law enforcement, since the discovery of DNA.

It is possible that such a device could become a mandatory sanction for prior offenders, or violent criminals who are up for release. Once the viability is proven the system/government whatever could then say that if everyone wants safety, and who doesn't want that, they should get this. The current outrage over child sex offenders seems to be a strong indicator. People would automatically know if one of these offenders wandered into a school zone, etc. since the system would raise a flag when he did.

Just some ideas. I forgot to consider this angle of the problem.

**Alpine_Sapper** · 04-09-2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by grundle

Speaking of law enforcement it would be a "brilliant" victory for investigation if we consider the case where people have already been implanted with this device that has some sort of locator or GPS capability.

Imagine, then a murder occurs. To generate a list of suspects you would estimate the time of death and the make a list of all personal ID numbers who were in that general area when the crime occurred. From that list you could probably find the criminal much quicker than our current response time. Especially since you can just drive right to them, using the same location technology.

It would be heralded as the next great breakthrough in law enforcement, since the discovery of DNA.

It is possible that such a device could become a mandatory sanction for prior offenders, or violent criminals who are up for release. Once the viability is proven the system/government whatever could then say that if everyone wants safety, and who doesn't want that, they should get this. The current outrage over child sex offenders seems to be a strong indicator. People would automatically know if one of these offenders wandered into a school zone, etc. since the system would raise a flag when he did.

Just some ideas. I forgot to consider this angle of the problem.

So learning how to clone the chips is going to be essential. Kinda like they used to do with cellphones. Modify a ham scanner to pick up the right frequencies, attach an EEPROM to the scanner, and everyone that walks by with a phone on broadcasts their information which you capture, decode, and clone into a new cell. boom, you got a device on their account. Same concept, but it's stealing the ID (in one feel swoop) vs. just the cell service.

**grundle** · 04-09-2009, 12:14 PM

Cloning, or you could also resort to "spoofing" which is just emulating a false signal that is taken as a real one. That is probably an easier approach and results in much more anonymity.

Of course...not bearing an implant will be even more anonymous.

**Alpine_Sapper** · 04-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by grundle

Of course...not bearing an implant will be even more anonymous.

But probably not allow you passage through the "normal" avenues, like walking down the street. You might be able to circumvent the system by staying to crawlspace/steam tunnel types of places. *shrug* This is now so far into sci-fi speculation there isn't really coherent probables that could be made at this time, imho.

**Smok** · 04-10-2009, 01:11 AM

Sorry that I have been just sitting back and reading . But you guys have taken this and run with to places that I never thought of ...Thanks this is a great read

**Nativedude** · 04-10-2009, 01:43 AM

Rick wrote: "Does anyone honestly believe there is a politician that would vote for having anything implanted in people involuntarily?"

YES. There have been many left-wing, liberal Congressmen and Senators that have pushed for that very thing. Starting with chipping babies as they're born.

They (Gov't zealots) claim "chipping" babies and infants will help to reduce the number of kidnapping incidences. In reality it would be a way of tracking and keeping an eye on them with the click of a mouse!

Rick wrote: "You already have a passport, drivers license, social security number, a phone number an address, credit card numbers....get the picture?"

No passport, D.L. yes, S.S. # no, phone # no, address a P.O. Box and credit cards no.

Rick wrote: "Remember when you were a kid and HAD to say the pledge of allegiance. Think about that. Forcing children to pledge their allegiance to the country. Sounds like something we would have expected from 1930s Germany. I'll bet there are few younger people that even know the words today. The point is, if a government truly wants control of the population, they start by indoctrinating the children. In 20 years you have a population that WANTS to follow government dogma because they believe it is correct. You don't start by beating old men into submission. You might get them to walk a straight line but you'll never get them to believe in it. You start with the kids. Just my .02.

EXACTLY!!

Rick wrote: "I also believe there is a lot of censorship in public educations. Groups forcing their own agenda. Probably why so many home school today.

I see home schooling as positive reinforcement that the government is not all that interested in controlling our personal lives. That would be one of the first things outlawed if it wanted to control young minds.

Again. . .EXACTLY!!