Questions about Alternate Home Fuels

[Ken]

Goodbye Massachusetts!

Yep, I'm soon saying goodbye to my birthplace of Massachusets, also the birthplace of the ultra-liberal, anti-gun, pro-taxation politician and the soon-to-have-a GPS chip-implanted-in-every-vehicle-inspection-sticker-state. (Unfortunately, I'll still be working here.)

I'm moving far far away - about 15 miles that is - to a small coastal town in the great State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. (Yeah, that's the actual name for what we call Rhode Island and it IS almost as bad politically as Massachusetts, but anyway.......) And I've already been approved for my Rhode Island license to carry. Lest I digress....

My soon to be new spread sits on about 3 1/2 acres - enough room to build a few things on. Including squirrel houses and bird houses and feeders.

Unfortunately, my heating fuel of preference, natural gas, is unavailable way out there in the coastal sub-sub-suburbs.

Since I'm without doubt installing a propane fueled generator at my new home, I'm considering the greater possibility of converting a 6-year-old oil-fired hot water heating system and the electric oven/range to propane as well. Maybe even propane fueled central air conditioning to boot. I easily have enough land to install one or two 1,000 gallon underground propane tanks a safe distance from the house.

I know propane is a little more expensive than oil, at today's prices, but the trade-off (even the cleanest oil-fired system is "dirty" compared to gas, and oil systems need service at least twice each year compared to natural gas systems I have had which NEVER once required service in 15 years) may be worth it.

Here are my questions for all of you fine folks:

1. Has anyone on the forum converted from oil to propane?

2. Are there any opinions on this, and should I consider incorporating a small solar panel system for electricity, whether or not I convert to propane?

3. We get a fair amount of constant prevailing winds, being a little over a mile from the ocean (property is about 150 feet above sea level.) Wind power electric generation, anyone? Costs and benefits?

4. What are the benefits (none of the articles I have read seem to agree) of propane compared to oil (heat) and electric (cooking, hot water, dryer, and air conditioning)????

5. Any nightmare stories or success stories I should know about?

My next posts will involve some questions on gardening (yes, even with squirrels) and grape vines (we have several successful vineyards close by).

Any and all thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated. So, everyone chime in, okay? Thanks in advance!

[nell67]

I don't know about propane and oil right now,seems awfully expensive,if it were me,I'd opt for an outdoor wood furnace,they are a little pricey,and you do either have to purchase the wood or cut it yourself,but for me,it would be the way to go.

[Ken]

Nell, wood's about $160.00 a cord, delivered, here. Ouch. And my Honey would kill me if I started chopping down our own trees. Besides, our schedules often keep us away from home all day with nobody around to tend the fire. A friend has a pellet stove he swears by, but that seems to be a pain in the butt to maintain, as well.

I'm looking for a system that will kinda' run itself without constant human ("Me") intervention.

[wareagle69]

propane is the way, i am a gas fitter among other tickets (plumber, pipe fitter, steam fitter, boilermaker) but propane is the way to go, think about it gas for your generator has a short shlf life propane does notcan be used for a samll trailor, bbq furnace stove the list goes on, for someone like you who is looking for a turn key operation, i would go with this, at a later time if you have disposable income, about 30,000 dollars you can look at solar and wind generation.

[red lake]

look into used oil furnaces, they are very expensive but the cost of fuel is zero

Also wood pellet stoves are popular up here too

[SARKY]

Also if you are going to go propane, get an on demand water heater.

[wareagle69]

red lake and sarky i have to dissagree -one a waste oil burner is being outlawed in most places and the ability to get used oil is diffucult
second on demand water is teerible nothing but problems with these units best off with sloar water during summer or a combi boiler

[Ken]

I have an on-demand (tankless) system now. Oil fired without a dedicated zone (holding tank kept at 65*). I don't know if propane would make a difference, but the system I have now often leaves me shivering half-way through a shower. This happens year-round. A friend with a tankless swears by it. Says he never runs out of hot water.

[nell67]

Also,the pellet stoves are no good if you don't pre order tons of pellets before the season starts,where I work they ran out of pelltes in October,and we didn't get any in until the end of January,lots of people buying other types of heaters to warm their homes with,or buying the pine pellets packaged for barn stalls,lots of angry customers with pellet stoves.

[wareagle69]

problem with wood is its allot of work, romantic yes, but i cut haula split and chop all my wood by hand can be a real pain, but for the most part i enjoy it, i do not want fuels on my property except for a propane generator and my trailor mainly ciz the 20lbers last along time, i'll stick with my wood but ken sound like he wants a turn key operation, all i can say is do your homework

[Ken]

I've chopped, split, hauled, and stacked more cords of wood than I care to think about (at least 10 ) in my lifetime.

The thing I like about propane is that it is a multi-purpose fuel (except for electric-option-only devices) and can even power a generator when needed. The propane refrigerators I've found aren't too impressive, but I'm still looking around.

One great thing about propane is the on-site storage volume. Even with extensive use (heating, hot water, cooking, clothes dryer, outdoor grille, moderate air conditioning, and stand-by generator) a 2,000 gallon underground supply in 2 - 1,000 gallon tanks would guarantee at least a year's worth of fuel if TSHTF. Probably more than double that time when we are forced to truly conserve by killing the air-conditioning, the clothes dryer, and wearing thermals and sweaters indoors.

So, my thoughts are both about living in "ordinary" times, if you can call these times "ordinary" as well as living if/when TSHTF.

Years ago, I gave up a great consulting job to start-up my practice full-time. The word "poverty" took on a whole new meaning for the first year or so, just before my oldest child arrived on the scene, when I took a 90+% pay cut and often earned (netted, that is) less than I did when I worked my first part-time job. If I had to, I could again feed my family for much less than $100 each week. But heat, light, and utilities are another thing altogether. Global warming or no global warming, the temperature has been freezing up here (wet ocean air) for two months. I can take the summer heat and humidity, but I HATE the wet freezing cold winters here.

So, yeah, we'll have a fireplace and we'll keep a few cords of wood THAT THE KIDS WILL STACK WITH THE NEW WORKGLOVES I'LL BUY THEM which will provide some back-up. However, refilling each propane tank as soon as it becomes empty will provide a great safety net if we should ever suffer fuel shortages, etc.

I'm just worried that, as with most of my great ideas, there is some hidden downside to this option. As far as I can see so far, the ONLY issue is start-up costs (about $10,000 for tanks, installation and hook-up, furnace conversion, and appliances) and the up-front cost of about $4,000 for the first fuel-up. After that, I expect the price of propane to be a little higher than natural gas or oil (but maybe not) and we'll simply budget in advance of each tank fill-up.

What am I missing here???

[crashdive123]

Ken, Obviously the conditions are quite a bit different down here. Many of my customers use gas only and have no complaints (curious and inquisitive by nature). As far as the actual conversion..... Since the equipment you would be replacing isn't that old, is there possibility of "trading it in"? Tax credits from local utilites for the conversion? If it's something doable for you, it sounds like a great idea.

[Ken]

Crash, I didn't think about tax credits or trade-ins. But, I'll look into it. Honestly, the only part of the heating system that will change is essentially the burner and a few pieces of related equipment. I'll probably even keep the current oil burner (probably worth less than $100 now) and oil tank in case I ever have to switch back.

You say most folks your way use gas. Natural gas or propane?

[crashdive123]

You say most folks your way use gas. Natural gas or propane?

Not sure if it is most, but quite a few. The use of CNG or propane really depends on the area. Many of the homes that are in "populated" residential areas have CNG hook-ups. There are so many more remote areas around that use propane.

[SARKY]

I've had a tankelss water heater for about 10 years now and have never run out of hot water. I don't see how you could have hot water in the begining of your shower and then have it go cold unless the burner cuts out on you.

[Ken]

Sarky,

I think the burner just shuts down in the middle of my shower. When it's really cold out, I'll crank up the thermostat to keep the burner fired up for the 10 minutes I'm in the shower, but even that doesn't work all the time.

[wareagle69]

to switch from natural gas to propane you just need new orifices, would be easier to going the other way then would need to just drill out propane to gas as ng used a larger orifice size, that it thats all

[LowKey]

Will the town you are in give you the permit for the 2 large underground tanks?

We used to have a tankless water heater. Hated it. Now we have an insulated non-electric storage tank. Works great if you have the space near the furnace. There are also hot-water-on-demand units. I don't know if they have them here but on a trip to England, all the B&Bs we stayed at had em. Flip a switch and good to go. Those worked great.

Pellet stoves... grrr. The self feeders need electricity to keep feeding the pellets. No good when power goes out unless you have that auto-on genny. Same for those fireplace inserts with the fans.

My next purchase. A 7000w Generac.

[Ken]

Will the town you are in give you the permit for the 2 large underground tanks?

I'm not sure yet. I've seen a few 1,000 gallon above ground tanks. Underground should be safer. The closest house (besides mine) would be about 500 feet away from my tank(s).

I've had a 10kw generator for years now. Assuming electric central air, I believe I'd need 17kw to run the entire house "as normal." I'm still researching propane powered air conditioning.

[LowKey]

As far as the generator goes, I just need it to run the furnace and the oven/stove in a short term situation. If TSHTF, 500 hours of genny power isn't going to go far.