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The re-encounter with Smittysurvival, formally know as Toughsord got me thinking. Why do young members often get the wrong ida about Survival? So I posted something new on my blog called "Defining Survival." Read it if you will, then come here & bring your feedback! :cool2:
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...blog.php?b=259
As a younger guy myself (21) I have many peers who tend towards the interpretation of survival as you put it - the independent, lone-wolf macho approach. I tend to subscribe more towards a grouped, systemic approach to survival with each member contributing a valuable skill or two to the group.
I think the main reason young people get it wrong is the media, (including and especially) video games.
Thanks for the post.
Sarge very good post! I agree 110% IMHO as vintage said A lot of the problem is media giving the younger people the "Rambo" mentality. It's a shame that they think they know it all because they read a couple of books and watched season 2 of survivorman. To bad they don't want to listen to the older wiser people who would be happy to share their knowledge. I admit despite all the training I have had, all the preperations I've made, I don't know very much about survival even though I went through the armys multiple survival "schools" because they were not real situations! They were schools if something went wrong someone was there to save my a$$. I have never been in a real survival situation. I hope I never have to. I don't know enough I am going to class everyday. Most of the classes are right here learning from people like sarge,sourdough, and others.
1st question I have to ask is "what is survival?" To some, like me, it is essentially camping out. To others it is being miserable, cold, wet and hungry. There is a line between the two but I don't know what it is. I think this one is all about perspective.
On the "I enjoy surviving" part. Does this mean I enjoy practicing wilderness survival? If so, then yes I enjoy surviving. Does this mean I enjoy living from day to day in my normal life? Well then the answer is still yes. I always get the impression that some relate "survival" to suffering. It doesn't have to be a miserable experience. Is it wrong to enjoy surviving?
On the "I want to survive alone" part. I couldn't agree more on this one. I am a loner at heart, but two heads are better than one. Anyone who thinks they could survive alone against other groups of people is in for a rude awakening when the S finally does HTF.
Well having been in both sets of shoes- Young Romantic & Old hand I guess I have to straddle the fence slightly. As long as they are trying to learn... Great!! If they are going off to try it on their own...worse than horrible!! You see from my perspective, if I had never been that young Romantic, I would never have learned what I have learned. If I hadn't learned what I learned then I wouldn't be an "old Hand"....I would be a corpse.
Yes I may coddle and coax the young ones. I do so for a reason. I want to keep them around. By keeping them around, they have a chance to learn. Now I do not put myself in the same class as say Canid, erunkiswldrnssurvival, or even WE. Each possesses more knowledge than I in their own right. However I am no slouch either and can make it if need be, just not as good nor as easily as they can because of their knowledge and PRACTICE. However I feel that it is more important to keep them around and learning, than jump them and tell them they are stupid or dumb or crazy. (Sarge I know you don't do this, But to THEM it seems as if you are). Feelings get hurt, a door is closed and a life could be potentially lost(especially if they really BELIEVE "I'm better-I'll show them"). Personally I couldn't bear myself to find out I had inadvertently endangered a life. So yes I'll talk softly to them(that doesn't mean not challenging a wrong thought or process), I'll buddy up with them,I'll try and mentor them. If it's something I don't know I'll suggest they seek out someone else's advice. Just call me Uncle Mel. I just remember what it was like for me,trying to learn this stuff on my own with just books...no one to talk to, no one to guide me, How dangerous it was at times and didn't even know it. No I won't jump on them, I will try and subtly change their mind,something that can't be done if they aren't here.
I need Uncle Mel to teach me to be patient with others.
The folks I encounter from time to time know more about certain things than I do even though they've never done anything other than watch survivorman and play videogames... Which really gets under my skin, since I'm the only one making fire with sticks and clothes with skins, etc.
Just sayin
In a bug out scenario, singular survival will have to do until someone else comes along willing to participate. I could/would do what it takes to look after myself and my family. But it is an illusion to think one could go on indefinately without a group. there is simply too much that needs to be done in a day for one person to do it all.
My idea of wilderness survival is NOT sacrificing comfort, but rather living as luxuriously as possible with whatever is at hand, knowing how to improvise. Theres no need to be cold, wet, hungry, and miserable. I can remedy all those. I have yet to find a remedy for dead.
good posts and good blog.
Great post Sarge, perhaps it will encourage some to think about that the simple question "what do need to survive in the woods". This is often being asked with out enough thought to their question. Such a general question makes answering it impossible without questions being asked to be specific to the needs of the asker.
If you google the word SURVIVAL, on the first page you get:
Wilderness Survival: Free info covering all aspects of survival.
A handbook for Wilderness Survival. Diagrams, Pictures, Tips, Tricks, Explanations, and Information.
www.wilderness-survival.net/
I came to this forum initially to learn more about wild edibles, that was nearly one year ago. Since I have read about and when I can, practiced What I will call "survival resourcefulness". I learn that from you, and too many others to mention.
As for your comment
"Finally, sometimes young members get their feelings hurt & leave for other forums that will be more than glad to let them believe what ever they will, as long as it doesn't get in the way of things. Sorry folks, Sarge ain't built that way!"
Well some new posters will jump to a defensive posture when they are threatened especially when they are young and are being stared down by a wolf. Maybe, being confronted by "you are inexperienced and need to gain knowledge and some practice", their survival instincts kick in and they feel threatened. I guess they don't like to hear in any way you are too young. They posture up with words and we come back back harder with words. Poco is a good balance to your tough guy. You do back off if they start to get it. You can come off a bit harsh at times after being provoked. Having read your posts I understand that you are knowledgeable about what you are posting, they do not. Hope I didn't get off track too much.
Sarge47:
"I enjoy surviving." Yes, well I certainly hope so as the other side of that is "DEATH!!
Sarge? May I quote you on that? :clap:
No offense to any younger members but few have ever had to deal with any real hardships. Heck! Even this generations playgrounds were fully padded and it's a mortal sin to hurt anyone's feelings. I work with a lot of younger people at one of my jobs. I love them and they are adorable but they have been spoon fed by their parents to believe they are the best and brightest and most amazing people on the planet. I'm not trying to be harsh and self esteem is a great thing. But the majority of these kids already don't see themselves or their abilities in a realistic light in general. So yeah, if they have an interest in survival and put on some camo it's like a club and of course they know more than some old fart.
Survival club. Baggy pants urban club. Goth/emo club. Maybe they are looking for an identity?
There are older people that are the same and when confronted with reality they will crack under pressure.
YCC, You don't need "Uncle Mel" to teach you patience, You already know it well. If you didn't you would not be able to post such informative articles/posts on processing deer and their hides. If you didn't know patience intimately, you would never have a deer to process. Patience is something you use in hunting every time. Patience and preparation. The knowledge you possess is exactly the sort of stuff that these younger folks desperately need. It is those of you that possess such valuable knowledge that I really am appealing to, without your knowledge being passed on it tends to "fade away" or disappear altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
I am glad that you do not see survival as a discomfort. Neither are the young ones seeing it as discomfort,just a knowledge obstacle that has to be overcome. Please pass it on to the next generation.
CGU how many of us thought we knew better than the "older generation"? Probably more than would like it being widely known. Yes they are being "Overprotected", yes they are being denied some "tough love". Yes they most likely are looking for "Identity" a sense of belonging,being a part of. Excellent!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by cowgirlup
I would rather have them here, trying to "fit in" than going to one of the street gangs and looking to belong there. I would doubt anyone there would turn them away, no matter what reason they went there for. I promise that one of these gangs would accept them. They would train them in their ways. They would start them as young as they could possibly get them. Perhaps we should do the same,accept them, train them in our ways. I can Guarantee they will be better off(and so will we) than the alternative.
Now this next is directed at no one in particular, nor in response to anything posted here or anywhere else. This is just how I feel.
I was once one of these "poor misguided youths", even planned on running away to Canada to live off the land like those that I had idolized, Mountain Men and Native Americans. I'm glad that my buddy could not wake me up that night to actually leave and go on this "Grand misadventure". I would surely be dead now. I too thought I "knew it all". Perhaps this is why I feel such an affinity for these youths. Been there, done that. Thank God I didn't get the tee shirt(it would have been a body bag "tee Shirt"). How many of you have said to these same youths..." Go join the Boy Scouts. They will train you in all you need to know."? How often in todays society is this done? Shoving our youth off on somebody else to "Raise,Train,or educate"?
But most importantly - How would you feel if, in their shoes, you went to an adult and wanted to be trained,taught, educated by them... trying to Impress them with all you know(even though it is very little indeed), only to be told to "shut up and go away"? This is a good way to send them right where you DON'T want them to go.... Gangs, Vampire cults, stuff like that. This is why I advocate keeping them here, training to the best of our ability, guiding them in the (hopefully) right path.
On one of my recent forays on the internet, I was treated like I'm afraid some of these youths are being treated. "Shut up, if you don't like it go away. We won't miss you. " ( see the thread "Other Forums, post #2"). This all from a So called prominent and "Respected" member and trainer of Survival skills!!! Now I do not think this Forum is like that. This is why I call this place home. Everyone of you is helpful and respectful, knowledgeable people on this subject/passion we share. Age should not be a qualifying factor on learning this. Yes we will be asked, what to us, are "silly" questions. But in the Army I was told the only "stupid question" is the one you don't ask. All I'm asking of you, is to show these youths the same tolerance, patience and forgiveness that you all have shown me. The youths are the next generation, they are a vital part of our community. Without them our community will surely perish... it will not "survive". That is Not what we are about, it is the antithesis of Survival.
I am not sure what you read into my post but my response was more directed to the info in the blog from the OP refering to people thinking survival is like something they see on TV and thinking they are great survivalists because they watch it or read up on sklills online.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes
I don't see where I implied they shouldn't be here? I think it's great if anyone has an interest in learning any skill that might help them in life.
Just be realistic with your skill that's all. Strengths and weaknesses.
This "problem" is not exclusive to this forum, or survival forums in general. I have seen it on many forums regardless of subject matter (mall ninja, for example). And, it is not always the young and inexperienced, but the old and inexperienced as well. I think it is a product of the internet. Someone can sit behind their computer and make up what ever reality they feel like. TV and video games provide them with ideas. To some, their real life sucks, or just doesn't mirror the exciting lives of celebrities and athletes. Also remember that teenagers always think they know everything, it is in their nature. My own ego wasn't really brought into reality until I lived in Poland for a few years away from mommy, and then afterward when I came home and got married. Of course my Calc 101 and Physics 121 courses in college gave me a good slice of humble pie. I knew everything until then. I know everything now, so what has changed :innocent: ). And, also, don't rule out the trolls. They see a group of people and just want to see how many they can get riled up. Or they want to just fool the experts. Regardless of the motivation, the internet is the perfect place to hide reality and become a new, more exciting person.
Perhaps I should have deleted what I was not referring to. I was using the part where you were talking about being Overprotected....Etc. And the "club" mentality. It just seemed to all "flow"along the same line. I do not think you even came close to implying to them "Not being here". Hope this clears this up? I just wanted what you had said about the Club mentality, in reference to gangs. They just want some place to belong. I want them to belong here, too. My fault CGU!! Ignore everything after "Excellent!!" as applying to your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by cowgirlup
I think you hit most of the highlights. Especially describing the "alternative to surviving". A forum like this is a place to "pick the brains" of other people and contribute what you can. It can not possibly prepare a person for an ultimate survival situation, and I am sure most will agree. I remember an old saying, that I will paraphrase "information is power", and the more information that you "listen to" with your ears and not your mouth the better rounded person you can be. Thanks for the blog
Got it! No worries friend. Thanks for clearing up the gang reference too!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes
Also I had specific people in mind including the 21 year old mentioned in the other thread.
(What? You can't read my mind????I'll have to make some adjustments so it comes in clearer!!!):cool2:
If you ever knew anything about me you might be surprised at the kind of person I am. I'm the only magician here in my area doing kids birthday shows! However, the reason I suggest the Boy Scouts is NOT to foist them off to somebody else, but give them a "hands-on" place to go, hopefully, as we can't do anything here but guide them with the written word. You are the "nice cop," & I like that in you. I, on the other hand, am the "hard-nosed, no-nonsense, confrontational" type. Both can work, & my approach has worked extremely well with troublesome kids that others had given up on here in my community. One thing is very important, though. No matter how often you tell them when they're wrong, be sure & commend them when they do it right! That makes a big difference! :cool2:
Sarge I too point them to the BSA. I know from first hand experience just how good they are at hands on experience!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
I never meant that you are a bad person. Not in the slightest. However sometimes the best thing to do (for me at least) is to ignore a thread. Some I have joined in and had to leave alone after a bit as things were just getting too inflammatory. Mostly from certain individuals, that are not young at all.
Yeah sometimes I am too "soft", with kids. But kids are sometimes like the Willow, while we are sometimes like the Oak. Willow can be "bent" rather easily, but try that with an Oak and it breaks.
I would rather try to "bend them" much the same way a raw arrow shaft is. Put it close to the fire, until warm. Then cautiously apply slight pressure. Amazing how this "Straightens" Arrow shafts. Kids IMO are much the same way. Put them close to the fire to "warm" them, then apply slight pressure(give suggestions, sometimes "strong" ones) to set them on the straight and narrow. An arrow shaft that is poorly selected, and/or discarded can only decay or rot. I would rather save as many of these "Arrows" as I possibly can.
When Toughsord left, I implored him to stay, afraid that he would try something foolish or dangerous. Just to prove his point. Honestly I worried about him, He sat heavy on my conscience. To me it was no different than if he had been in a house on fire. I wanted to "save" him. Granted not all can be saved. Some losses we just have to deal with. But I have to try.
This has nothing to do with you or anyone else. I just see too much "wasted" youth,headed off on the wrong path. Some on the other hand (like b storm) are ideal models of youth, on this Forum. I would like to see friendships between such individuals formed. No friendships can be formed however if they are absent. I really wish they would form their own social group...say WSF Wolf Cubs, or some such. The name of the group is really unimportant, the connection is important though. Maybe I am just an idealist,a dreamer,or whatever else I could be called. Maybe just a soppy A$$. But for whatever reason, I do care about the youth of today,and what I see concerns me. I want them to stay even if they only learn one thing in 10 years. That one thing could be what turns out to save them, not just in a pure survival sense either, but in a life sense. The longer they stick around the better chance they have of seeing good role models which I think 99.99% of the members here are. (there's always one "bad apple", and no one , or no forum, is perfect.) And yes that includes you Sarge! You are one of the good role models. So is Crash, Rick, Canid, Ken, Lorna, MM, Nell ...........almost everyone here, I'm not going to name off the whole membership roster. Just look around, there are so many that have so much to contribute to these youths. It really saddens me when one runs off pouting for whatever reason... and scares me at the same time. There are so many Bad alternatives out there that could be so detrimental to them. I could go on for pages with, what in reality is a plea. A plea to try and save as many as we can. Really it is no different than if we came across a wrecked school bus. Not one of us would just drive on by.... Not one. Why should the way we treat them here on the forum be any different? I am not saying they don't need discipline, They do. Where are they going to learn it if we don't provide it by example?
Anyway I could go on 'til you all throw up... if you haven't already. I hope you all can read the message that is in my heart, not in my words. As many words as I know, they sometimes fail me, or rather I fail them.
I hear you, Poco; however, in my case it's a bit different. If you go back to Toughsord's intro thread read my 1st post to him. I took some jibing from Ken & a few others for being nice to him. Then he began flaming the membership here. It's okay for you to have your way of handling youth; but as a moderator on this forum I have to establish authority whenever it's challenged. In the case of TS/SS even Crash had to warn him. I also sent him some PMs that he needed to listen to the members here to learn, but he wasn't having any of it. There are certain "red-flags" when someone's being a Troll and this fellow was sending them all up. We have other young members on here who are learning and not being disrespectful in the process, & I also feel that they need to see the authority working for them as well as the others on here. :cool2:
Okay, let's look at what you wrote:Quote:
Originally Posted by rwc1969
1st, you wrote: "To some, like me, it is essentially camping out." I would disagree with that, although you could argue that when you got home you "survived" your camping out. Survival means "staying alive;" period! Webster's 9th Collegiate Dictionary reads: ""To remain alive or in existence: Live on. To continue to function or prosper." Yes, camping could be included in that, however that's usually not what the membership on this forum is talking about.
2nd, you asked: "Is it wrong to enjoy surviving?" No, however going through a very tough ordeal may not be enjoyable. People have survived very bad ordeals and wound up losing limbs in the process, is that enjoyable? Remember, when faced with a survival situation, it is going to be "unplanned."
3rd, in response to this: "On the "I want to survive alone" part. I couldn't agree more on this one. I am a loner at heart, but two heads are better than one." Just let me say that you may not have a choice. You could be involved in a terrible calamity involving friends &/or family members. Remember, "unplanned" is the key word here.
When I talk about Survival I'm not talking about an enjoyable planned outing; that's unrealistic. I'm talking about Hurricane Katrina, the Tunsami that made the news, the tornado that hit the Boy Scout camp; get the idea? I camp out too, but I'm not too worried about it until something bad happens. :cool2:
OK I hear you. When I "met" toughsord he apparently had gone past all that. That or my short term memory is shorted out. I do recall his "departure" and "I'll show you" remarks. I was genuinely worried about his well being.... Still am. I just hope he will come around. (That last sentence can be taken two ways... I mean both of them.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Hey Sarge, I whole heartedly agree with you! As an Instructor, I have no problem with ignorance as that can be remidied with knowledge. However stupidity I have no tolerance for. If a person is too stupid to take good advice given freely then they deserve whatever nature doles out to them.
Pal said it good!:cool2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pal334
Sarge great post, truely liked it alot and it is true.
Now while I am a lone wolf type myself and do alot of solo trekking and camping, in a survival situation I would no doubt rather have at least one more person.
AND I GOT SOME NEWS FOR YOU... camping is not survival, it's camping.
I have only been in a real survival situation one time, I was in the Army at the time and ended up alone... won't go into it, it's kinda long if ya really wanna know let me know.
Les & Bear Grylls do not do survival, they teach it, yes that is true. Heck bear is about as fake as one get in that respect. And if you really think Grylls eats all that stuff you are wrong and that is sad. Squeezing the moisture outta elephant dung!!!??? Are you freaking kidding, get a grip.
If these kids wanna learn something, and I dont care if you live in the suburbs or inner city, if you really wanna learn how to survive you'd seek out a group. YES even in the city there are groups that go into the parks, here in Cincinnati they have several and even in New York. 'If the kid won't do it because his friends won't think he's cool, then he had no real intrest to begin with.
Quit babying all these kids, they are soft and weak as it is because of the over caring we give them anyway. Kids are stronger than we think, they bounce back sometimes better than adults. If you have something that is rezilliant (yeah I know its spelled wrong) and you keep babying it, it will become soft, weak, and breakable.
Kinda gruff but just my two cents
Beo,
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